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Re: bi-monthly updates

#2
I don't think this is a good idea... honestly I think Josh's idea of a monthly update has sort of strayed from what it used to be. Instead of a "here's what happened in the month of October" it's become "here's a bunch of stuff coming out around the time of October". I think if he can't fit content he wants into the update video he should just make a shorter video. If it's all tech, it's all tech, and he can discuss it in laymans terms. The update videos should be simply the things that happened in the month... if it happens after the month then that can go in the next video, can't it? I think the reason why they're becoming sparse isn't because Josh is having a hard time with content but because he is having a hard time separating the idea of the update video and the rush to produce visible content for us to see... I honestly think that it would be ok for him to just firmly lay a line in the sand and say, "Nothing that I developed after October 31st will go into the October update, even if recording and rendering delay it to a November 2nd release". That means there's still stuff for a November release, and if its a slow month, well the update serves its purpose and lets us know without making it seem like Josh is having an absolute horror of a time like it does when the release drags out *three weeks* behind schedule. The whole idea is to update us on how development is going that month...not only to show us so-and-so sets of content, even if that is a part of updating us.
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Re: bi-monthly updates

#3
Were it not for some sort of Kickstarter mention, I would suggest that that word "monthly," with respect to development update videos, be taken out back behind the barn and destroyed.

All a "monthly" expectation does is cause unnecessary angst when software development reality interferes with an arbitrary schedule. I'd prefer to see a video whenever enough development has been done to warrant a new video, whether that's one week or three months.

Just one more opinion to throw out there.
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Re: bi-monthly updates

#4
I agree with Flatfingers - otherwise it's a case of the tail wagging the dog.

The update videos are nice, and I look forward to them, but if they're not that different from the previous one, or don't arrive when you hope they're going arrive, it just creates unnecessary angst.

For me, the update videos should just follow the same mantra as the game itself - when it's ready.
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Re: bi-monthly updates

#5
Actually I always got the impression that Josh liked the extra push that the monthlies used to give him, used to being the key part of that statement. I think time constraints should be pulled back to whatever Josh is comfortable with, which from what I can tell is pretty much what has happened. He still seems to like the drive but without the downside of disappointment both in himself and all of us. I think he's doing fine as he is. My only concern really is that if he does delay them too much then he ends up with more content than he can fit into a comfortable video duration which could likely happen now that the focus has shifted to content. There can and probably will be a lot more to show us than there was before so I just hope that whatever he does meets his own expectations rather than ours.
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Re: bi-monthly updates

#6
I don't think there will be too much content to show, his switch to chapters was rather smart, he can just tack on another if needed, and some content can be seen and not explained, and still convey it's presence (which is the art of good storytelling anyways)
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Re: bi-monthly updates

#10
I don't think its a good idea to just slate *everything* to 'when its ready'. The game? Sure. The beta? Ok, that too. I agree that giving those things time actually aids development. Updates? No. They serve a dual purpose of not only encouraging Josh but also maintaining community engagement and keeping the process transparent. When it's simply delegated to each time that there's enough content, things will drag out and Josh will get less input from a wide range of people who only watch the devlogs, or the Kickstarter updates, or even the people who read the devlogs every day but don't *get* technology words and coding jargon. Not to mention Josh isn't inhuman. Everyone needs a little push now and then to make sure that they're working at a good pace and also to make sure they aren't heading in an altogether less useful tangential idea. Since Josh is in a one man team, this is where I'd say they're important.

I think there's a little bit of bias in these forums; the update videos aren't only served as content for us to watch. Even though it might be alright if they were a work in and of themselves to just delay them to when there's content, their regular nature and consistent pacing serve other purposes too. It's selfish of us to disregard all of these and simply say, 'if the video is good, I don't care how long it takes'.
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Re: bi-monthly updates

#11
InfelixTurnus, I may have misunderstood you, so please correct any error here.

Are you saying that, when I suggest -- not order, but suggest -- that Josh can probably obtain for himself a generally higher level of happiness among the loyal fans of Limit Theory's development as well as less personal stress by releasing videos based on feature readiness, rather than on an arbitrary schedule, that is somehow me being "selfish?"

If I've got that right, that's... an interesting spin.

I respectfully disagree with your opinion, and in particular with how you presented it, for two reasons.
InfelixTurnus wrote:Everyone needs a little push now and then to make sure that they're working at a good pace and also to make sure they aren't heading in an altogether less useful tangential idea.
That's not our job. It's not our business in any way to "push" Josh to any timing of releasing updates or anything else. To believe that it's appropriate for us to try to dictate to Josh when he has to do anything is to misunderstand the relationship between fans of a game and the person actually creating it, especially when that developer already has demonstrated the sense of personal responsibility that Josh has.

"It's our business to push him" is a wholly invalid basis for arguing that Josh should release development videos according to any regular schedule.

The second of your two arguments in favor of monthly videos no matter what was that the level of community engagement is dependent on Josh releasing update videos on a regular schedule regardless of feature readiness or how many all-nighters he has to pull. To phrase that somewhat more directly (but, I think, fairly): you better pop out a video every month without fail, bub, or we're outta here.

I think the visibly continuous participation here for the past two years of numerous people who signed up the week the Kickstarter went live (which you can review for yourself here), as well as many other long-time fans -- regardless of when update videos get released -- is a fair and sufficient rebuttal to that argument.

The fact is, I wouldn't mind seeing a video every month. I even agree with your observation that a regular monthly development video might help retain the interest of people who don't keep up in the forums. But I think trying to please them is less important than trying to please the people who've stood faithfully and actively with this project since they learned about it, and definitely less important than releasing videos in a way that doesn't make the coding process mentally and physically harder on Josh than it already is. He's already dedicated two years of his life to this project -- at this point I think it's safe to say his work ethic is sufficient without us thinking we need to "push" him every month to gratify anyone.

In summary, this thread is just us swapping viewpoints. It has, and should have, zip-point-zero effect on Josh's intentions for releasing any update video. My opinion is that he and we would probably be happier just getting videos whenever they're ready, but that's just an outsider's opinion and I don't expect it to have any weight with him whatsoever.

Likewise, you're entitled to have a different opinion about video release timing, and even if I disagree with it I'll defend your privilege of expressing it. But making it personal about members of this forum, accusing them of holding their opinions because of personal bias and selfishness? That doesn't make your opinion more persuasive -- just the opposite.
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Re: bi-monthly updates

#12
I agree with Flatfingers (again!). Where is the +1 button on this forum? :problem:

It was, however, refreshing to read that despite the October / November video running "late", Josh is more relaxed & cool about it than he has been in the past.

I remember when the August video got missed out, and Josh was clearly tearing himself up about it & apologising profusely to everyone on the forums. I was like "WTH man?! You trying to make youtube videos, or a game here? Chill!".

In my humble opinion, Josh is under enough pressure as it is (from himself) and doesn't need the added pressure of us whining at him to meet some arbitrary deadline to show us some shiny (OT: just realised it's very hard to read those last few words out loud without slipping into Sean Connery mode :D ).
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Re: bi-monthly updates

#13
Lum wrote:
Victor Tombs wrote:I wish we had a new video to watch every week and a veritable cornicopea of new images posted by one of the Josh clones in the Media section every other day.

:shifty: Not forgetting cake every Sunday. :D

Is this too much to ask? :mrgreen:
Sort answer: :lol:

Long explanation: :lol: :clap: :clap: :clap: :lol: Good try, Vic :thumbup:
I knew it wasn't a good idea to add the cake, Lum. Curses, I never could get the hang of this asking for what is reasonable and deliverable. :angel:

:think: A few more wallpaper images would be nice though. :P
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Re: bi-monthly updates

#15
Lum, my whole point is that there *shouldn't be all nighters at all* for the videos. I'm sorry if you interpreted me talking about selfishness as being insulting, but honestly the point I'm trying to get across is that Josh shouldn't be pushing himself exceedingly for any video- rather, he should just release them as the end of the month comes around and keep on working- why should there be a content rush? The only reason there would ever be a content rush is if he's trying to please the people watching the videos with 'visible content'. Even pushing them to bimonthly would simply create the same because Josh would raise his own expectations and we'd have the whole same thing happening again with longer videos. Big difference. And the videos *cant* become 100% irregular simply because they're his main mode of communication with people who don't come to the forums; which is a lot of people.

I've only been trying to promote a change in perspective over this, so that Josh releases whatever he's done in the month and doesn't feel the need to push extra content in or delay the video, but I feel like I've been demonised as some sort of slavemaster demanding videos from him monthly. Why is there so much aggression disguised in polite words in these forums? I've been coming here for a while for the dev logs and every time I try to post anything this community always seems to try to push people away. I know that in any case opinions can be misunderstood but it seems to me that the 'regular crowd' around here is really passive aggressive about everything.

EDIt: OK, so I re-read your post and I calmed down a bit. But I still feel like even though It might just have been my defensiveness making your words seem aggressive, that a lot of opinions get locked down in these forums before people can ever explain them. There's a lot of 'You can have your opinion' but in the end what so many posts end up as is this flat denial of even considering the viewpoints of others. This is the sort of thing which I'm finding really distasteful about this community at the moment, especially because I've seen you people interact well enough and take the opinions of other 'regulars' into account. It just feels really exclusive and incredibly frustrating. At the very least you could give us a flat out "no, this isn't how we do things around here" instead of all of this passive aggressive polite talk that you cling to for the moral high ground.

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