Return to “Suggestions”

Post

Jump Gates

#1
I’ve watched all of Josh’s development videos and I have to say each one has impressed me and made me want this game even more. But there is one thing that seems a bit illogical. I don’t mean that as an insult after all this topic is a piece of advice.

As the title implies I’m referring to Jump Gates. Now clearly the ships need a bit of a boost to quickly travel between planets thus the warp lanes. Now these are manmade structures etc, etc ,etc you get the point.

Why then do the jump gates between systems just magically appear in each system with no source of energy at all? Do these anomalies just happen to appear in each system where life happens to exist? Because I don’t like these sort of coincidences.

Now let us get to a simple fix for this. Obviously a device that would allow you to travel between systems would need a lot of energy. Happily there is a ready source in each system, the system’s star of course. Thus my suggestion would be as such, each jump gate should be generated by a device placed near to a star so as to draw its energy directly from the system’s sun. How that device should look I’ll leave that up to Josh if he decides to implement this idea.

This could also create some strategic difficulty, taken into account Josh’s latest videos on sensors. Imagine if the gate was placed near to a star and an enemy fleet just happens to come through it, you would not realize the enemy is within your system until they were some distance away from the star as your sensor would be overwhelmed by the sun’s radiation and be unable to pick up the fleet’s signature.. This would create interesting and complex combat tactics.

So let me know what you think!
Post

Re: Jump Gates

#2
Presently the links between systems are jump holes, that is, naturally-occuring wormholes. Presumably the intrasystem lanes would have been constructed to reach these wormholes more easily.

Jump gates are not out of the question, however, and are probably going to coexist with their wormhole kin, particularly if there is a possibility for wormholes to be unstable and change their location within a system or disappear entirely. A more stable, controlled means of interstellar transport would be necessary.

I believe we are also expecting jump drives, though likely not for anything smaller than a very large freighter or capital ship.
Shameless Self-Promotion 0/ magenta 0/ Forum Rules & Game FAQ
Post

Re: Jump Gates

#3
Grumblesaur wrote:Presently the links between systems are jump holes, that is, naturally-occuring wormholes. Presumably the intrasystem lanes would have been constructed to reach these wormholes more easily.

Jump gates are not out of the question, however, and are probably going to coexist with their wormhole kin, particularly if there is a possibility for wormholes to be unstable and change their location within a system or disappear entirely. A more stable, controlled means of interstellar transport would be necessary.

I believe we are also expecting jump drives, though likely not for anything smaller than a very large freighter or capital ship.
Yes well that is the problem I was talking about “naturally-occuring wormholes” that occur in the midle of nowhere with no source of energy. Though according to the laws of physics wormholes are possible they would require a great deal of energy to be created. Also how come these “naturally-occuring wormholes” happen to “occur” exactly in the systems that happen to have life? Again it seems too much of a coincidence. Jump gates would create artificial wormholes and would seem more logical since they get their energy from the sun and not from some unknown source in the middle of nowhere.

Just saying that it would make more sense
Post

Re: Jump Gates

#4
Hadrianus wrote: Yes well that is the problem I was talking about “naturally-occuring wormholes” that occur in the midle of nowhere with no source of energy. Though according to the laws of physics wormholes are possible they would require a great deal of energy to be created. Also how come these “naturally-occuring wormholes” happen to “occur” exactly in the systems that happen to have life? Again it seems too much of a coincidence. Jump gates would create artificial wormholes and would seem more logical since they get their energy from the sun and not from some unknown source in the middle of nowhere.

Just saying that it would make more sense
Who's to say that every system in Limit Theory has life? I imagine there will be a great deal of systems that have jump holes and no inhabited planets. You're making the assumption that wormholes are going to be everywhere there's life. That doesn't have to be true at all. There may be inhabited systems with no natural way in or out (and as a result have a jump gate, have ships with jump drives, or have no intersystem transit at all), and there may be uninhabited systems with wormholes leading in.

I feel like you're making an issue out of of what is more of a quirk of game design. It's called the law of conservation of detail. If an object cannot be seen, used, accessed, interacted with, or otherwise present in the mind of the player, then it doesn't need to be included. The player isn't going to be aware of any systems that are "off the grid" because they may as well not exist (until they get jump drives, at least). The scope of the universe that is available to them is only composed of the systems that are connected to the one they are currently in.

There's been a growing trend on these forums to "explain" different aspects of the game's design, particularly when it deviates from reality. It amounts to a lot of unnecessary technobabble and pedantry. Sure, some players are going to wonder "man, what's with all these wormholes?", but everyone would rather have that than "man, I can't leave this system until I've amassed the resources to fund a jump drive or jump gate for myself. This is bull.". Wormholes exist in-game out of convenience to the player, the AI actors, and the developer, because the game with them present is simpler to understand, more fun to play, and easier to design with rather than without.

If you want to come up with a pseudoscientific explanation as to why wormholes are so dang common, or why they shouldn't be, or whatever, then I have a couple of notes for you:

1) The LT universes are infinite. A fun thing about infinity is that essentially anything is possible. You can technically prove that if you check all numbers to infinity, all of them contain a three. (It's obviously untrue, since we all know that "42" doesn't have a three in it, but the larger the span of numbers you check is, the larger a percentage of numbers containing a three there is. That percentage tends toward 100%. Tricky, eh?) We can carry such thinking from numbers to wormholes. Not every system will have wormholes, yes, but the more systems you count (while counting toward infinity), the greater the proportion of systems with wormholes. That proportion will tend toward 1.

2) A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet. A wormhole by any other name will still suck you out of one system and spit you out in another.
Shameless Self-Promotion 0/ magenta 0/ Forum Rules & Game FAQ
Post

Re: Jump Gates

#5
Grumblesaur wrote:
Hadrianus wrote: Yes well that is the problem I was talking about “naturally-occuring wormholes” that occur in the midle of nowhere with no source of energy. Though according to the laws of physics wormholes are possible they would require a great deal of energy to be created. Also how come these “naturally-occuring wormholes” happen to “occur” exactly in the systems that happen to have life? Again it seems too much of a coincidence. Jump gates would create artificial wormholes and would seem more logical since they get their energy from the sun and not from some unknown source in the middle of nowhere.

Just saying that it would make more sense
Who's to say that every system in Limit Theory has life? I imagine there will be a great deal of systems that have jump holes and no inhabited planets. You're making the assumption that wormholes are going to be everywhere there's life. That doesn't have to be true at all. There may be inhabited systems with no natural way in or out (and as a result have a jump gate, have ships with jump drives, or have no intersystem transit at all), and there may be uninhabited systems with wormholes leading in.

I feel like you're making an issue out of of what is more of a quirk of game design. It's called the law of conservation of detail. If an object cannot be seen, used, accessed, interacted with, or otherwise present in the mind of the player, then it doesn't need to be included. The player isn't going to be aware of any systems that are "off the grid" because they may as well not exist (until they get jump drives, at least). The scope of the universe that is available to them is only composed of the systems that are connected to the one they are currently in.

There's been a growing trend on these forums to "explain" different aspects of the game's design, particularly when it deviates from reality. It amounts to a lot of unnecessary technobabble and pedantry. Sure, some players are going to wonder "man, what's with all these wormholes?", but everyone would rather have that than "man, I can't leave this system until I've amassed the resources to fund a jump drive or jump gate for myself. This is bull.". Wormholes exist in-game out of convenience to the player, the AI actors, and the developer, because the game with them present is simpler to understand, more fun to play, and easier to design with rather than without.

If you want to come up with a pseudoscientific explanation as to why wormholes are so dang common, or why they shouldn't be, or whatever, then I have a couple of notes for you:

1) The LT universes are infinite. A fun thing about infinity is that essentially anything is possible. You can technically prove that if you check all numbers to infinity, all of them contain a three. (It's obviously untrue, since we all know that "42" doesn't have a three in it, but the larger the span of numbers you check is, the larger a percentage of numbers containing a three there is. That percentage tends toward 100%. Tricky, eh?) We can carry such thinking from numbers to wormholes. Not every system will have wormholes, yes, but the more systems you count (while counting toward infinity), the greater the proportion of systems with wormholes. That proportion will tend toward 1.

2) A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet. A wormhole by any other name will still suck you out of one system and spit you out in another.

1. I said jump gates would make more sense not that they are a must. There is no need to get angry.
2. I never said that the jump gates have to be built. The game could start out with a predetermined number of gates say connecting all of the inhabited systems and quite a few uninhabited ones and grow from there.
3. I did not say that all these wormholes exist only in the inhabited systems; I said that all the inhabited systems just happen to have an “occurring” wormhole. That to me does not seem to make any sense, so please read carefully before you go on a rant
4. This was a suggestion, it may be taken into account or it may not I’m going to play the game either way.
Post

Re: Jump Gates

#6
Hadrianus, I am not angry. I'm not ranting. But I'm of the opinion that it's not necessary to explain certain gaming abstractions. I wasn't asserting that you said that jumpgates must be built from scratch (of course there will be some at the start of the game. The universe undergoes a passage of some amount of time at the time of generation in order to make a more fruitful and interesting universe from the player. As a result, I assumed that you and I both knew this, and we did).

I also made no assertion that you said that wormholes ONLY exist in inhabited systems. I did, however, assert that there may exist systems with inhabitants, but no wormholes.

Our actual solar system, as far as I know, is one such system.

It might be wise not to tell people to read carefully when you yourself have not. And at any rate, I understand that it's a suggestion, and that it may or mayn't be taken into account. I'm dissenting to your idea, not attacking you. With regard to video games, I have a fairly tolerant willing suspension of disbelief. There are some here on these forums who are interested in explaining the game design, as you are. There are others who aren't so. I ask that you not be discouraged, and that you continue to share your thoughts on these forums, but also that you not call "rant" on someone who disagrees and provides some reasons for such.

Happy posting.
Shameless Self-Promotion 0/ magenta 0/ Forum Rules & Game FAQ
Post

Re: Jump Gates

#8
As Cornflakes says, check out the Heisenberg Extractor thread where all of this is resolved. The ideas given for how jump-gates meet their huge power demand would also be applied to other areas of gameplay, also discussed in that thread.
Post

Re: Jump Gates

#9
I was under the impression that the jump gates between systems and the intra-system lanes were all built by the factions that inhabited them. It's just the "gate" part of the jump gates haven't been created yet.

To have magical naturally occurring wormholes connecting every system would be bizarre and would make getting a jump drive unnecessary.

My point, please no "natural" wormholes. :)
Post

Re: Jump Gates

#10
Jamiee5300 wrote:I was under the impression that the jump gates between systems and the intra-system lanes were all built by the factions that inhabited them. It's just the "gate" part of the jump gates haven't been created yet.

To have magical naturally occurring wormholes connecting every system would be bizarre and would make getting a jump drive unnecessary.

My point, please no "natural" wormholes. :)

My point exactly.
Post

Re: Jump Gates

#12
There's a simple explanation which I feel is being overlooked: Natural wormholes did appear in Freelancer, and they did appear in occupied systems. Therefore they are also present in LT development videos and the prototype, which are in no way representative of the final product, but are representative of a planned mechanic.

The even simpler explanation is that Josh hasn't gotten around to procedurally generating jump gates yet.

The extrapolation that they appear in every occupied system seems unfounded to me. With the exception of the Prototype, these are development videos, not gameplay footage.
Post

Re: Jump Gates

#13
alpan wrote:There's a simple explanation which I feel is being overlooked: Natural wormholes did appear in Freelancer, and they did appear in occupied systems. Therefore they are also present in LT development videos and the prototype, which are in no way representative of the final product, but are representative of a planned mechanic.

The even simpler explanation is that Josh hasn't gotten around to procedurally generating jump gates yet.

The extrapolation that they appear in every occupied system seems unfounded to me. With the exception of the Prototype, these are development videos, not gameplay footage.
Errr...nope.
There will be most likely wormholes, at least they are planned
Post

Re: Jump Gates

#14
There's an even simpler explanation for jump gates/wormholes.

Jump gates can be built/destroyed. As such, wormholes exist to allow actors (player and game) to traverse systems in the event no such jump gates exist.

Yeah, it's gamey, but it's also a necessity.
Image
Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
Post

Re: Jump Gates

#15
From this thread, I've heard, that the structure of space will be so there is no "orphan systems", but every system is not connected to every neighboring system.

My thoughs on jumpgates were that they are structures, stabilising a natural wormhole or even creating a whole new one. They can be destroyed, reverting to the natural jumpholes. Natural jumpholes in the other hand would be small and unstable enough to damage you on passage.

Natural jumpholes are a necessity to allow passage to new systems without setting up a gate, allowing for exploration without a jumpdrive, and allow you to not get locked in a system.
In space, no one will hear you scream. #262626
I've never played a space sim. Ever.
Vos estis tan limes.

Online Now

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests

cron