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Re: LOD Simulation and historical simulation

#16
CSE wrote:
DWMagus wrote:We're also talking about mostly historical and LOD simulation.

It seems that if one cluster is more rich in a specific element than another, then once the history is done generating and once a few clusters are discovered, it may be completely possible the AI will then 'see' this other cluster as you traverse boundaries (utilizing the idea that was put out a long time ago that information travels with ships) and trade may establish between the two regions.
Yeah. But as this is not very realistic that the player has such an impact, this is the reason why commerce must be very costly - thus have a limited influence due to marginal volume. Impact is on information mostly, and the fact that we generate a new cluster when the player is still some distance away should "hide" somewhat the fact that exchange happens only "recently". Not perfect though.
What if one cluster was completely lacking a material while the neighboring cluster had plentiful of it? Even in that situation? Supply and demand would dictate that no matter the cost, when there is no supply, demand is infinite.

As for the player having an impact, the sheer fact the player exists is the impact. Take the following situation;

The cluster (and possibly surrounding clusters) have been generated. Taking into account the fact that knowledge travels and is not instant (as hinted here), then the medium of moving that knowledge IS the player (as from what you've said clusters are self-contained). Whenever the player crosses from one cluster to another, they take that information with them.

Now, we expand that from a set of clusters that were generated on game-start to when the player gets near the boundary of a cluster that requires a neighboring cluster to be generated, and we have the possibility of a newly generated cluster being roped IN to the rest of the other clusters' economy.

I like to make this akin to countries. Each country is (for the most part) self-contained, but there is still commerce that flows between them. Not as much, mind you, but it allows for a way for the economy to grow and become interconnected. It also allows for the ability to create the equivalent of a refueling station between such clusters that if done right could make a lot of money for the trader because they're basically creating that inter-country highway.

Of course, if by creating these stations, it reduces the cost, then it is also a way for the player to influence trade and make new trade possible. Cutting off clusters from one another completely in the sense of the AI just doesn't make sense, even if there is some threshold. Suddenly the player is less limited than the AI.
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Re: LOD Simulation and historical simulation

#17
ThymineC wrote:Edit: Or I guess what you mean is, there needs to be a big difference between normal connections and those linking clusters. That would make sense, and yeah.
Exactly what I meant. Thanks for clarifying. Travel within a cluster must be "order of magnitudes" easier than across clusters, otherwise the "frontier" (i.e. the lack of significant impact from region to region) does not make logical sense.
ThymineC wrote:I'm not a fan of 1) because I don't like the idea of in-game years passing just so I can enter another cluster. I'm not a fan of 2) because what makes the player so special that he can safely navigate a path that can destroy anyone else (it's even worse if the player can be destroyed, because I don't want my efforts to explore to be punished by me dying because of a dice roll). 3) could work.
I am actually in favor of (2) - i.e. many ships "lost in action" during a jump. This is the best explanation to very low military influence and very expensive commerce.
(3) - just being expensive, explains the commerce, but a civilization could decide to invest a one time sum to send a significant (i.e. "cluster influencing") force through.
(1) - time passing is a very good explanation for military, and I like the gameplay (you basically need to relish control on your empire if you have one, and will be surprised with the result when you get back.), it also is a very good reason not to simulate at high LOD all possessions of the player - if no real time communication is possible, a coarse LOD will be enough. This alone may be a good technical argument. It does however not explain the price tag on commerce (except via "interest rate" and net present value, but this is probably not strong enough).
We may need a combination, or hope that some "Heisenberg lore" gives us a better way...
DWMagus wrote:What if one cluster was completely lacking a material while the neighboring cluster had plentiful of it? Even in that situation? Supply and demand would dictate that no matter the cost, when there is no supply, demand is infinite.
No supply = infinite demand is valid for the first microgram. Then there is a supply, so demand crashes.

In normal situation, very high demand -> research to find more material OR alternative -> cheaper alternative. See the cost of copper for telecom. Now we use Silica to make optical fibers, so we got thanks to R&D independent of copper. Other example: diamond and "glas" (for jewelry) or artificial diamond (for industry).

Again, a niche commerce will happen, but niche products are usually a luxury, and have no significant influence on the economics of the remote cluster (exception: spice in Dune. You need to be able to find an alternative).
DWMagus wrote:As for the player having an impact, the sheer fact the player exists is the impact. Take the following situation;

The cluster (and possibly surrounding clusters) have been generated. Taking into account the fact that knowledge travels and is not instant (as hinted here), then the medium of moving that knowledge IS the player (as from what you've said clusters are self-contained). Whenever the player crosses from one cluster to another, they take that information with them.
...
Yeah, there will be some influence. But as I mentioned above, the cost must be order of magnitudes apart, to justify the lack of influence during historical generation of the (first) cluster. Will have to think about that a bit more....
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Re: LOD Simulation and historical simulation

#18
Bump.

I've been thinking recently about the idea of space traffic, and I realised CSE had already largely covered the idea in this thread. But just to expand on it: I'd really like if the economies of planets interacted "properly", in which any goods that they wish to trade in are ferried between themselves by hauler worker-type NPCs. These haulers will utilise the spatial topology and transport infrastructure of the system, perhaps as I describe in Realistically-Sized Systems and Travel i.e. by intelligently travelling along HAVE lanes and transfer lanes, which somewhat correspond to the A-roads and motorways/freeways of real life.

Planetary economies will interact using the same bid/ask system that the market system uses in general, and may also set up long term on-going trade contracts. Hauler NPCs will spawn from these economies to facilitate the exchange in goods between these economies, and the greater the quantity of goods demanded and supplied, the more haulers will spawn and the greater the level of "space traffic" you will see in the system.

Not only will traffic density increase, but economies will spawn larger, more specialised hauler vessels along the busiest trade routes. Additionally, capitalist-minded NPCs may establish stations and other facilities along the busier trade routes to service the regular traffic along them. Criminal or warfare-minded NPCs may plan blockades or traps along these routes as well.

When a hauler vessel is spawned, it will cost economies real credits and resources. Planetary economies will need to demand and consume the appropriate materials and have enough surplus credits in order to spawn haulers. The larger and more specialised hauler vessels will cost more than smaller hauler vessels.

In the normal operation of a hauler vessel, it will function as a very low-LOD AI with the simple goal of finding the optimum route from Point A to Point B. To minimise computational load, the game can periodically find the best route between two planets and then encapsulate this information as an object and make it accessible to these NPCs via the entity cache. This should allow for a large number of haulers to be concurrently supported.

However, if the hauler gets interacted with in some way by higher-LOD agents - either executive NPCs or the player himself - then they (and possibly nearby hauler NPCs) will dynamically turn into higher-LOD NPCs in order to react realistically and deal with the situation. If you attack a hauler, the system will allow it to utilise more advanced decision-making algorithms in order to respond appropriately to that event, and it will likely try to flee or request assistance from security forces. It will continue to act as a high-LOD agent until it is destroyed or the situation has been otherwise dealt with. If the situation is dealt with and it is not destroyed, it will resume behaving like a regular low-LOD hauler. If a hauler is damaged or low on fuel, it will seek out facilities to repair or refuel it.

Haulers carry the actual goods that planetery economies exchange with each other, and it is possible for other NPCs and the player to capitalise on this in two ways:
  • By pirating from haulers to obtain the goods being exchanged to keep those goods for themselves.
  • By establishing blockades to prevent the goods reaching a particular economy, causing that economy to potentially experience a supply-side shock related to the goods they're being deprived of, and whatever effects follow on from that.
Based on what Josh wrote in his latest dev log (as of the time of writing) under Starting Risk Management Implementation, planetery economies will model all of this traffic as a project, and will intelligently respond to disruptions in this traffic by spawning or hiring additional security forces to escort haulers or patrol a particular region.

I think that the implementation of space traffic in this way will lend a fair amount to gameplay and help capture the feeling of a living, breathing universe.
Last edited by ThymineC on Sun May 04, 2014 3:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: LOD Simulation and historical simulation

#19
Why should haulers be special? They, theoretically, should spawn emergently due to the planetary economies needing somebody to move their stuff. If they think it's better to make the ships themselves, they will.

Also the hauler workers turning into executives begs the same question. Yes, they should have a "FOLLOW PATH. FOLLOW PATH." -mode and a "Crap, I can't follow my path! Better do something about it!" -mode, but full high-LoD?

Actually, all workers, not just haulers, should have obey-mode and improvise-mode, the latter only being active if something prevents them from doing a task. Not full high-LoD.
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Re: LOD Simulation and historical simulation

#20
Behemoth wrote:Why should haulers be special?
In what way are haulers special?
Behemoth wrote:They, theoretically, should spawn emergently due to the planetary economies needing somebody to move their stuff. If they think it's better to make the ships themselves, they will.
Well that's what I'm proposing.
Behemoth wrote:Also the hauler workers turning into executives begs the same question. Yes, they should have a "FOLLOW PATH. FOLLOW PATH." -mode and a "Crap, I can't follow my path! Better do something about it!" -mode, but full high-LoD?
They get simulated at a high-enough level of detail to react intelligently to their current situation. That doesn't necessarily have to be the same level as executives are simulated at. I expect that all worker-NPCs will dynamically get simulated at higher or lower levels of detail depending on their assigned task and current situation.
Behemoth wrote:Actually, all workers, not just haulers, should have obey-mode and improvise-mode, the latter only being active if something prevents them from doing a task. Not full high-LoD.
Yep. When I say high-LOD, I mean high enough to improvise.

I think we've basically just agreed upon everything.
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Re: LOD Simulation and historical simulation

#22
I'd very much like to see this. I'd also hope that some ships do some version of it between systems.

In addition to being a natural extension of haulers supporting the local economic network, to see a conga line of haulers entering into and exiting from a jump gate/hole/whatever in an economically active star system would help sell the feeling of being part of a living universe.

...

Incidentally, I notice that we've invented a third class of NPC here. Besides high-LOD executives/thinkers/players and workers/doers, now we're talking about low-LOD (but not simulated) workers who can be dynamically promoted to high-LOD workers.

I see the point behind the new guys, but I thought it might be worth highlighting this before any new systems/features get built on their backs. ;)
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Re: LOD Simulation and historical simulation

#23
Flatfingers wrote:Incidentally, I notice that we've invented a third class of NPC here. Besides high-LOD executives/thinkers/players and workers/doers, now we're talking about low-LOD (but not simulated) workers who can be dynamically promoted to high-LOD workers.
No, no, no. Let Thymine explain
ThymineC wrote:They get simulated at a high-enough level of detail qo react intelligently to their current situation. That doesn't necessarily have to be the same level as executives are simulated at. I expect that all worker-NPCs will dynamically get simulated at higher or lower levels of detail depending on their assigned task and current situation.
In space, no one will hear you scream. #262626
I've never played a space sim. Ever.
Vos estis tan limes.
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Re: LOD Simulation and historical simulation

#24
How is that different from my point that this means non-simulated workers would have more than one mode of operation?
ThymineC wrote:In the normal operation of a hauler vessel, it will function as a very low-LOD AI with the simple goal of finding the optimum route from Point A to Point B.
...
However, if the hauler gets interacted with in some way by higher-LOD agents - either executive NPCs or the player himself - then they (and possibly nearby hauler NPCs) will dynamically turn into higher-LOD NPCs in order to react realistically and deal with the situation.
We've been using the word "simulated" in the context of LOD to mean that there's not actually a physical object created in the world. At best it's represented by its individual results, or aggregated along with a lot of other similar abstracted actors to accumulate their results. We probably should not extend the word simulated to apply to things that are instantiated in the game world as objects.

As I read Thymine's suggestion quoted above, worker objects remain real objects, but they function at a lower level of choice-making than regular workers.

I think it's not unreasonable to suggest that this constitutes an additional class of NPC.
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Re: LOD Simulation and historical simulation

#25
Flatfingers wrote:I'd very much like to see this. I'd also hope that some ships do some version of it between systems.

In addition to being a natural extension of haulers supporting the local economic network, to see a conga line of haulers entering into and exiting from a jump gate/hole/whatever in an economically active star system would help sell the feeling of being part of a living universe.
Oh yeah, certainly. These hauler networks can extend over arbitrary distances, including between solar systems and regions.
Flatfingers wrote:Incidentally, I notice that we've invented a third class of NPC here. Besides high-LOD executives/thinkers/players and workers/doers, now we're talking about low-LOD (but not simulated) workers who can be dynamically promoted to high-LOD workers.

I see the point behind the new guys, but I thought it might be worth highlighting this before any new systems/features get built on their backs. ;)
We haven't invented anything. I'm talking about worker NPCs, and their dynamic LOD nature is already covered in Thoughts on Worker and Executive NPCs.
Flatfingers wrote:We've been using the word "simulated" in the context of LOD to mean that there's not actually a physical object created in the world. At best it's represented by its individual results, or aggregated along with a lot of other similar abstracted actors to accumulate their results. We probably should not extend the word simulated to apply to things that are instantiated in the game world as objects.
I hadn't noticed, but I'll keep this in mind. I was using the term "simulated" to refer to anything at all within Limit Theory, since it is is a simulator.
Flatfingers wrote:As I read Thymine's suggestion quoted above, worker objects remain real objects, but they function at a lower level of choice-making than regular workers.

I think it's not unreasonable to suggest that this constitutes an additional class of NPC.
Hauler workers should not be distinct at all from other worker NPCs, if that's what you're saying - they are worker NPCs who just happen to be employed by a planetary economy rather than an executive NPC or the player, and they happen to be involved in a task that ordinarily does not require much thought, so they can each be be individually operated (not simulated ;) ) with little CPU overhead.
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Re: LOD Simulation and historical simulation

#26
I love the idea of quantified haulers. Also I do believe that they should be special in the simple fact that they are designed specifically with hauling in mind. IE like haulers in EVE are designed with that purpose. A lot of space. That isn't to say that you cannot create a hybrid ship, or that your larger fleet ships might not have comparable storage space. Simply that the hauler ship itself is more economical at it.

Furthermore seeing NPC/AI haulers transporting real goods that are really quantified as being bought/transferred from a point a to a point b either by the player or by other NPC's would be quite amazing. Rather than some magical mysterious 'RTS' transfer where it simply disappears from one point and appears in the other and no true logistics actually takes place. I would think of it in the same vein that I compare traditional RTS games to Settlers. In Settlers you cannot build anything without your carriers literally taking the resources out of the warehouse. Transporting it to the work site then your constructors using those resources to build. Everything in the game is physical and transported and quantified. And logistics are important. I would love to see that in LT. I'm not entirely sure how *I* would envision it working with the low-LOD and inactive systems when you consider that the simulation in such background isn't visible to the player as anything more than strictly data. But I suppose the simple simulation could be that the low-LOD function calculates the average time it should take for the hauler to get from point a to point b and simply creates a background job that flips the data from point A to 'transit' to point B. And if the transit occurs anywhere with the player then make it high-LOD while in that system by assigning additional information to it such as a specific NPC hauler with a hauler ship that has enough storage to move said goods. Or multiple ships in a cargo train or convoy. That way there is a point A -> low-LOD -> transit -> high-LOD -> transit -> point B
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Re: LOD Simulation and historical simulation

#27
TGS wrote:I'm not entirely sure how *I* would envision it working with the low-LOD and inactive systems when you consider that the simulation in such background isn't visible to the player as anything more than strictly data. But I suppose the simple simulation could be that the low-LOD function calculates the average time it should take for the hauler to get from point a to point b and simply creates a background job that flips the data from point A to 'transit' to point B. And if the transit occurs anywhere with the player then make it high-LOD while in that system by assigning additional information to it such as a specific NPC hauler with a hauler ship that has enough storage to move said goods. Or multiple ships in a cargo train or convoy. That way there is a point A -> low-LOD -> transit -> high-LOD -> transit -> point B
I'd say you were certainly on the right track. As a low-LOD thing, I'd probably implement it as a Markov process, which I talk about briefly in Semi-Markov Research Trees. In fact, I think it would be best to model it as a specific type of Markov process called a birth-death process, in which a "birth" corresponds to a hauler being sent off from Economy A with goods, a "death" corresponds to the hauler delivering the goods* at Economy B, and the state corresponding to the number of haulers that you imagine to be in transit. The birth-death process ensures you can't get into negative state numbers (you can't have negative numbers of haulers in transit). You set the "birth" rate lambda equal to the "death" rate mu since haulers should embark with goods at about the same rate as they can deliver them.

When a "birth" occurs, you deduct the goods from Economy A. When a "death" occurs you add the goods to Economy B.

*To model haulers that get destroyed en route or otherwise fail to deliver their goods, at each "death" you can sample from a probability distribution to determine whether the goods get added to Economy B or not.
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Re: LOD Simulation and historical simulation

#28
I love the idea! They could be the equivalent of airport baggage cars, and be hired by stations and planets, carrying little strings of cargo about from ship to station and back, or they could get in trade lanes for intra-system trades. However I think that they would need to be very slow and vulnerable compared to even a cheap player ship, and perhaps limited to a single system, unable to Traverse wormholes.

I suppose these would be similar to drones/probes... Anything small, slow, simple, and stupid which exists only to give a visual representation of what already exists; for which I can think of a few more such as patrolling turrets to be a very weak and basic form of swarm protection for trade lanes that simply fire upon anything else that is firing, excluding their owners... little repair drones that fly out from ships or stations to do the actual repairs on ships which have the need; construction ships... these ships would be so small and simple I would even be okay with them coming in and out of existence on need, so long as you own the things, they are essentially ammunition
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Re: LOD Simulation and historical simulation

#29
Hyperion wrote:I love the idea! They could be the equivalent of airport baggage cars, and be hired by stations and planets, carrying little strings of cargo about from ship to station and back, or they could get in trade lanes for intra-system trades.
For short-range transits like between stations and ships, I envisage drones doing most of the work that are controlled by the station. But it's a similar enough idea, with drones essentially acting like even lower-LOD agents than worker NPCs.
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Re: LOD Simulation and historical simulation

#30
Just some additional thoughts on haulers,

As we are seeing an expanding family of commodity classes, I think it would be a nice touch for haulers to indicate what they are carrying by their external appearance. Haulers carrying manufactured equipment could resemble semi-trailer trucks (brick with front window), those carrying workers could look like busses or planes (brick with many windows), those carrying raw materials could look like trains (A string of bricks), those carrying blueprints could look like trailer homes (brick with few windows).

Since haulers are direct competition for transport ships, I don’t think they should be free or automatic. Instead stations and colonies should have to build terminal modules. making haulers terminal to terminal rather than colony to colony or station to colony*. Terminals would have to work on either contract basis between the two points, or be open to all local terminals (though pricing for transport would be different between these systems**). Terminals could of course be expanded and upgraded, resulting in more and larger haulers respectively, growing the total import and export capacity of the terminal. These differences in size, number, and procedural shape/texture would add significant diversity to the appearance of traffic and life in the system. My assumption is also that each individual hauler carries a very small quantity of goods, but a hauler chain has in its total length enough capacity for significant material transference.

* If these are constructable modules, I see no inherent reason why a ship cannot also attach one. If you have a capital ship with a hauler terminal on it, it could very well serve as a travelling marketplace, These sorts of ships may be very useful mobile trade hubs for backwater regions.

** My thoughts on the different pricing structures of open v contract terminals are fairly simple,
If you have contracts, a terminal owner puts out a buy order to the local system, another terminal owner fulfills the order, and the hauler string begins until the goods are delivered. If piracy occurs, the seller must continue to send out goods until the order is fulfilled, so it is the responsibility of the seller to protect the shipment. Payment is made upon fulfillment.
If you have an open system, the seller puts out a sale offer of a given quantity at a given price, and any other local terminals can buy any portion of that sale offer, and the hauler strings begin until the seller has sent out all goods. Here, it’s important that not all goods are not required to make it, so that if piracy occurs, it is a loss to the purchaser, and prevents the seller from having to send out an endless stream of materials. It is the purchaser’s responsibility to protect the shipment. Payment is made before shipment.
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