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Re: inside ship environment

#17
I did check out Pulsar. My antennae are always up for things like this. ;)

While I'm all for making it, and I like a lot of its announced features, it's not something I'll be playing. The co-op features don't do anything for me, but more importantly, roguelike permadeath makes exploration too risky. But exploring systems is what I look for in games! (That's one of the reasons why Limit Theory is so attractive to me.)

Hey, maybe I know my next project now. :)
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Re: inside ship environment

#18
ThymineC wrote:
Victor Tombs wrote:Was PULSAR: Lost Colony not to your liking Flat? It's making good progress in development. :)
  • Random
  • Galaxies
  • ...Yeah!
Haha, the Kickstarter video for that was pretty sweet. The sky looks absolutely stunning here.
I backed it at VISIONARY level ThymineC and the only regret I have is that it didn't attract enough funding to achieve many of its stretch goals. They are still funding via their main site though so there is still a chance for some additional achievements. :D
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Re: inside ship environment

#19
Flatfingers wrote:I did check out Pulsar. My antennae are always up for things like this. ;)

While I'm all for making it, and I like a lot of its announced features, it's not something I'll be playing. The co-op features don't do anything for me, but more importantly, roguelike permadeath makes exploration too risky. But exploring systems is what I look for in games! (That's one of the reasons why Limit Theory is so attractive to me.)

Hey, maybe I know my next project now. :)
That sounds like a great idea for a project Flat. I enjoy reading your ideas for LT so I could see such a game being of interest to me. I look forward to hearing what you finally decide to do. :D
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Re: inside ship environment

#20
Hardenberg wrote:I'll just drop this here.
http://elliptic-games.com/
Indeed, thanks for dropping it. The third screen shot shows exactly what I'm talking about. A console in a big, empty room with boring floor tiles. That's a non-entity. Exactly the thing that's not worth spending a single developer's thought (or a single customer's penny) for. :roll:

Seriously, if you hear the word "spaceship", is anyone here whose first and natural thought is "large amounts of unused empty floorspace"? :o
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Re: inside ship environment

#21
I'm still against ship interiors... The effort would be great to design all that, and would not be the focus of the game. I mean, the game is about exploring space, mining, running mission, killing ships, building stations. That is what the game is focusing on. So ship interiors would be... Well... How would it fit on a space exploration-type of game?

I just don't think it would add much to the game, and instead I would prefer that time invested in carriers, more ships, better AI, more investment in the space part of the game, which is the actual game.

Personal opinion, of course, not saying ship interiors are bad, I just do not think they are the focus of this game.
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Re: inside ship environment

#22
X3 and Rebirth are both great examples of trying to make the game "work" on too many scales.

In X3 you can fly a single fighter, upgrade it's weapons, use many different missiles, and buy lots of different upgrades.
And you can run a galactic empire with carrier fleets, weapon and ammo production, and whatnot.
The detailed gameplay of the former makes the gameplay of the latter highly frustrating and micromanagy because there are no mechanisms for abstraction. When you run 12 carrier fleets you still get to equip every laser and missile and piece of upgrade on every single bloody fighter.

In Rebirth you can leave the ship and run around on a space station... and you can command fleets of destroyers. (carriers once they implement production of fighters =)
They did flesh out neither of those aspects enough to be fun.


The gap between a single person and a ship is huge so crossing that line is very dangerous. LT doesn't do it. A ship is the smallest 3D entity in the game world. NPC (and "the player") may end up modeled as an abstract data construct that can "be" on a ship or station but that's about it.

Ship interiors can be a good thing but I don't believe they are workable if the player can have more than one ship active in space at the same time.
Star Citizen has gotten that part right. It's far smaller scale than LT because you'll never have more than a single ship. It's just not doable while dragging that level of detail through the entire gameplay.
There is no "I" in Tea. That would be gross.
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Re: inside ship environment

#23
I think its not doable for an even simpler reason.

There is simply nothing to do aboard your own ship. Yes, we could 'talk' to npcs, and hang out in the lounge, but that really doesn't accomplish anything of note. Everything of interest occurs outside of the ships hull. Whats inside may as well be some instanced reality, like a player house in some MMO.

This is not to say that a character based ship interior game could not work or be fun and interesting, but it would have to be a far more scripted and linear game, so that the crew could have plausible reactions and suggestions to what is going on outside of the ship. Something like the Walking Dead games, perhaps.
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Re: inside ship environment

#24
CutterJohn, I respectfully disagree.

I don't think there's much doubt that starship interiors are completely doable from a technical perspective. The real question is whether a game will benefit from having interiors and the other features that need to go with them. (The old "but what would you do with them?" question.)

I'd say 3D interiors can be a good design choice for a game that will include two other features:
  • You'll be flying the same complex starship for many, many hours.
  • Operating the ship is done indirectly through crew, who need to be managed.
(A third reason to do interiors, which really includes the above two, is if you're making a game from a licensed property that has vessels with interiors. If you're not going to properly implement that part of the license, you have no business making that game.)

Let's consider these two features.

1. If you're going to be trading out ships frequently or managing large fleets, then there's little value in rendering interiors. You won't see them often enough to get value out of the work needed to generate them. Random generation might reduce that cost, but probably not enough to make it worthwhile.

You also don't need interiors if ships are simple things that just move and shoot. In that case, there's nothing worth representing as a physical location that has a function distinct from other ship functions.

Suppose on the other hand that starships are complex things composed of numerous systems with which you can interact in deep ways, and that you'll be flying one particular ship for many in-game hours. In this case, it basically becomes a character -- it's internally complex enough to have its own personality.

When ships are characters, interiors can be valuable because they give you an interface for interacting in multiple different ways with your ship, just like you would with an interesting person. Because these different gameplay interactions are something you'll do a lot of, the cost to implement them in visibly and functionally detailed ways pays itself off by helping each kind of gameplay feel as unique as possible.

What doesn't make sense is having lots of interactions with a complex technological artifact like a starship by mashing a few cooldown-timered buttons. In this case, one might as well be piloting a ship-shaped lump of metal that can spam magic powers. (Which is precisely what Cryptic did in Star Trek Online.) Rendering detailed ship systems through the metaphor of being physical places inside a ship helps make each kind of gameplay mode expressed through those locations more distinctive, and thus more enjoyable.

2. A large ship with multiple physical locations that are dedicated to using distinct ship functions doesn't make sense unless your game will include NPC crew as avatars and crew management gameplay.

If you don't want crew management, you can still have complex ships; you just don't need to render the interfaces as 3D locations. A 2D schematic interface is sufficient if you're going to be the only character actually doing things.

If managing characters as crew is a design goal, however, and you're also going to implement ships as complex systems, then 3D interiors can be the right choice. You have to be ready to also spend the time necessary to implement crew as characters, with personalities, goals, abilities, pathfinding, the AI to manage all those things, and a command interface for setting priorities and letting your crew figure out how to accomplish them.

Those features aren't cheap. But if you do them, then being able to walk through your ship while NPC crew scurry about doing their varied jobs becomes extraordinarily immersive. At that point, you have a "starship simulator."

Again: it's completely true to observe that not everybody would find that kind of thing fun. But you can say that about any form of game. What matters is whether there are enough people who would find it a blast to manage their "hero" starship from the inside with a legendary crew.

If there are enough people like that, then 3D interiors are not only doable, they're an appropriate design goal.
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Re: inside ship environment

#25
Flatfingers wrote:Suppose on the other hand that starships are complex things composed of numerous systems with which you can interact in deep ways, and that you'll be flying one particular ship for many in-game hours. In this case, it basically becomes a character -- it's internally complex enough to have its own personality.

When ships are characters, interiors can be valuable because they give you an interface for interacting in multiple different ways with your ship, just like you would with an interesting person. Because these different gameplay interactions are something you'll do a lot of, the cost to implement them in visibly and functionally detailed ways pays itself off by helping each kind of gameplay feel as unique as possible.
If we ere talking a ww2 sim, sure. But this is the future with heavy automation. There is no reason one should have to even leave their seat to access pretty much any ship system.
What doesn't make sense is having lots of interactions with a complex technological artifact like a starship by mashing a few cooldown-timered buttons. In this case, one might as well be piloting a ship-shaped lump of metal that can spam magic powers. (Which is precisely what Cryptic did in Star Trek Online.) Rendering detailed ship systems through the metaphor of being physical places inside a ship helps make each kind of gameplay mode expressed through those locations more distinctive, and thus more enjoyable.
That makes a lot of sense. Operating a ship is a pretty simple thing. A guy on the bridge cranked the engine repeater to the ahead flank position. The throttleman opens up the throttles. EOS may have called down to me and ordered me to light off another feed pump and condensate pump.

But the OOD? He had no clue what went on with operating the engines. He didn't care a bit about the stacks of steam plant and reactor plant manuals we needed to keep the thing running. More importantly, he didn't need to know. All he knew was there was a repeater that got turned, and magically the engines responded.

Controlling a ship is a very simple operation compared to the act of operating a ship, and the people controlling it only have a rudimentary knowledge, at best, of all the jobs that go into operating it.
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Re: inside ship environment

#26
The main reason to have ship interiors to me is: inmersion. A complex word, but I can't think of an alternative right now.

Regarding activities inside ships and space stations, I think a lot of it can be executed only with text and leave the rest to the imagination. That way it will feel even more real and organic, because it is using all the power of the AI. You see your ship, and you know something is going on inside. That alone is very exciting. :D

What I would like is to fly over the surface of planets and walk off the ship in the first person, for no reason. I don't care that there is nothing to do. The sheer pleasure of it is enough, until the author would add functionality in future upgrades.
Captain L Adama wrote:- spaceships could be multiplayer rooms, each with specific missions.
- fly small crafts yourself, bigger ships you can be a gunner etc.
- set the autopilot, then out of chair. To party in lounge and meet others. If you get message on watch...youre needed on deck. Head back.
- promotion tree. Begin as rookie with small ship. End as commander of multiple ships
- 2 person fighter craft, 8 person carriers for low scale recon/mission
- planetbases each planet with diffrent engines (dlc?)
- battlestar g. Colony style vessels wich you can visit.
All this sounds like Star Citizen. I don't think LT should be like ST. They are two completely different beasts.
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"Playing" is not simply a pastime, it is the primordial basis of imagination and creation. - Hideo Kojima
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Re: inside ship environment

#27
Gazz wrote:X3 and Rebirth are both great examples of trying to make the game "work" on too many scales.

In X3 you can fly a single fighter, upgrade it's weapons, use many different missiles, and buy lots of different upgrades.
And you can run a galactic empire with carrier fleets, weapon and ammo production, and whatnot.
The detailed gameplay of the former makes the gameplay of the latter highly frustrating and micromanagy because there are no mechanisms for abstraction. When you run 12 carrier fleets you still get to equip every laser and missile and piece of upgrade on every single bloody fighter.

In Rebirth you can leave the ship and run around on a space station... and you can command fleets of destroyers. (carriers once they implement production of fighters =)
They did flesh out neither of those aspects enough to be fun.


The gap between a single person and a ship is huge so crossing that line is very dangerous. LT doesn't do it. A ship is the smallest 3D entity in the game world. NPC (and "the player") may end up modeled as an abstract data construct that can "be" on a ship or station but that's about it.

Ship interiors can be a good thing but I don't believe they are workable if the player can have more than one ship active in space at the same time.
Star Citizen has gotten that part right. It's far smaller scale than LT because you'll never have more than a single ship. It's just not doable while dragging that level of detail through the entire gameplay.
Two thoughts on that:

1) I think it is possible to make a game work on many scales, at the expense that you have to provide suitable gameplay and UI for every scale.
It would be much effort but not impossible.

Considering X3, I think it was quite good on the "single fighter" level and had many prerequisites for being a RTS as well. Unfortunately, the UI sucked at being a RTS UI and the respawning of NPC fleets from nothing meant you could not really win. But with a Homeworld-like UI for fleet command and a means of destroying the logistics of NPC factions so they spawn no more fleets, X3 could have been a passable RTS as well.

What was also underdeveloped in X3 was a UI for the medium scale where you command something like a destroyer. Still only one ship. Too many weapon systems to aim and fire all of them yourself. But not too many to assign targets and give the command to fire. EVE Online is an example of how to do it well.

Based on previous forum discussions and update videos, it seems Josh is actually going to try it at the same level X3 tried:
  • Flying a single fighter and managing its equipment are there. Josh showed us that much in the monthly update videos.
  • Building and commanding multiple assets was discussed, including OOS combat. That implies an X-like capability that a payer's assets can span several systems. Also, the FAQs (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=160) list some empire-y stuff like RTS tactical interface to deal with large numbers of ships
2) I do, however, agree that too much micromanagement needs to be avoided.
So on the larger game scales, there need to be abstractions for the low-level stuff. For example, personally interviewing members for your six person crew may make for good game play. But at the destroyer scale with a crew of 500, you will want the option to dock at the Naval Academy and hire 40 Redshirts without talking to everyone separately.

That does not mean the destroyer cannot have interiors. But don't be surprised as a game designer if they don't get used much. Making it necessary to run around for everyday tasks is a design error (which is frequently bemoaned in X:Rebirth, and there is already a mod against it ;) ).
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Re: inside ship environment

#28
Etsu wrote:The main reason to have ship interiors to me is: inmersion. A complex word, but I can't think of an alternative right now.
This is why I don't want to see them. I spent years onboard a ship, and I know for a fact that no game would ever do it justice.

More importantly, there is no... activity. Look at what Josh is attempting to do with the ship AI. They are busy little bees, running around with their tasks taking care of business.

In contrast, look at the implementation of ship interiors in pretty much every game that has attempted to include them. There is nothing going on. The NPCs idle at their stations. Occasionally they will spout off some random one liner, or a question mark will appear above their heads so that you know they are ready to dispense a quest to you. This may be nice as eye candy, but its horrible as gameplay, and rather than making me feel part of a crew, and part of a ship, it makes me feel like i'm in a dollhouse.


TL;DR... I can imagine a far more satisfying ship interior than game devs are capable of delivering. I'd rather be left to my imagination than be shown something I would find dissatisfying. Maybe someday someone will make a game where the crew actions are actually simulated, Dwarf Fortress style. That would be cool.
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Re: inside ship environment

#29
Personally I want a cockpit.
I want something that makes me feel like I am actually INSIDE the craft and not R/C-ing it.
The cockpit does not have to be detailed, with all the nodes available that opens the use of using a basic cockpit (example glass and a control console).

Full interior ship environments though ambitious would be a PITA to do.

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