What do you mean by "queue attacks" in the context of a game where you may be managing hundreds of different ships across multiple sectors?
Do you mean that you would prefer to have to pause, click "go here" for all your ships, run the game, pause again when they get there, click "now attack"?
Would it not be easier, and more sensible, to tell your ships "go here, do this, then this, then that?"
VATS in Fallout 3 doesn't give an advantage because of the queueing, but because it improves your stats while you're in VATS.
In both Skyrim and Fallout, it's hard to see how those games would be anything like playable if the game kept running while you went through the process of switching weapons/armour/ammo according to the needs of the battle.
It's also worth noting that in those games you play as one person with maybe a few "pack brahmin" characters following you around. Your interactions with any followers are limited, and mostly come down to trying to keep them from suicidally getting killed and losing all your stuff. If you were giving active and ongoing orders to your followers - "target this dude, execute this pattern," etc, it would be the height of tedious to not have some kind of order stack.
Indeed, I assume we will have an order stack for units while the game is *not* paused. Do you want people to be unable to modify that stack?
Post
Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:21 pm
#62
Skyrim is very playable without pausing - simply assign your main weapons and attacks to the number keys. All the pausing can be done outside of battle. That's how I played it. (to be fair, never played Fallout 3 - just watched videos for it.)
I'm not saying that pausing as a gameplay mechanic is a bad thing. I'm saying it would be ridiculously easy to turn it into too much of a mechanic, and we'd have to be careful. I don't want to feel forced to pause the game if I don't want to, for example.
I actually rather expect that the AI will be good enough that I won't feel forced to pause the game to give them orders - I'd hope they'd be able to figure things out on their own and execute the best tactical approaches. If you have to pause, then you can't say you're on the same level as your opponents (who can't pause).
What I'm basically trying to say is:
In a game where your NPC opponents are supposed to be exactly as capable as you, pausing when they can't either means you have an unfair advantage, or they aren't written correctly. Pausing should be entirely up to the preference of the player, and not enforced by the game mechanics.
In other words, I'm strongly against Limit Theory in particular utilizing pausing as a gameplay mechanic, because it means that somewhere, something else wasn't done right.
Edit: Unless, of course, the AI has no built-in delay and is able to react to your every move in an instant - in which case I'd say the AI isn't done properly... But it would necessitate pausing as a gameplay mechanic.
Re: Pausing As A Gameplay Mechanic
Actually, after you unpause, all queued attacks are executed instantly. That's a pretty big advantage, considering the enemy is effectively frozen while you're firing.McDuff wrote: VATS in Fallout 3 doesn't give an advantage because of the queueing, but because it improves your stats while you're in VATS.
Skyrim is very playable without pausing - simply assign your main weapons and attacks to the number keys. All the pausing can be done outside of battle. That's how I played it. (to be fair, never played Fallout 3 - just watched videos for it.)
I'm not saying that pausing as a gameplay mechanic is a bad thing. I'm saying it would be ridiculously easy to turn it into too much of a mechanic, and we'd have to be careful. I don't want to feel forced to pause the game if I don't want to, for example.
I actually rather expect that the AI will be good enough that I won't feel forced to pause the game to give them orders - I'd hope they'd be able to figure things out on their own and execute the best tactical approaches. If you have to pause, then you can't say you're on the same level as your opponents (who can't pause).
What I'm basically trying to say is:
In a game where your NPC opponents are supposed to be exactly as capable as you, pausing when they can't either means you have an unfair advantage, or they aren't written correctly. Pausing should be entirely up to the preference of the player, and not enforced by the game mechanics.
In other words, I'm strongly against Limit Theory in particular utilizing pausing as a gameplay mechanic, because it means that somewhere, something else wasn't done right.
Edit: Unless, of course, the AI has no built-in delay and is able to react to your every move in an instant - in which case I'd say the AI isn't done properly... But it would necessitate pausing as a gameplay mechanic.
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Post
Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:59 am
#63
Re: Pausing As A Gameplay Mechanic
to your claim from Mass Effect 2+3.
you strictly werent able to turn instantly while paused, you could turn around as quickly with fast reflexes and a sensitive mouse.
but the lag from "pointing target reticule" to "shepard points there" was effectively zero, leading to what you outlined.
but in LT turrets will need time to rotate a given angle, so while you can target faster, your turrets (or ship for fixed weapons) will not be able to follow you in the same instant as in Mass Effect.
leading to no net advantage in pausing.
very similar for Fallout.
the VATS is not a pause mechanic as gameplay, its a concession for different playstyles.
the ones who prefer shooters dont have to use it, because you can archieve the same with quick reflexes and a precise mouse.
no faster firing rate, no frozen enemies.
just time slowing down for the awesome effect.
VATS was included to cater for the RPG players who dont want twitch based gameplay.
removing all personal twitch skills from the player and replaces them with the stats of your character
if your weapon handling skill is bad, you dont hit any better in VATS than you could with perfect twitch skills
(like a 13 year old CoD kiddie would have)
you strictly werent able to turn instantly while paused, you could turn around as quickly with fast reflexes and a sensitive mouse.
but the lag from "pointing target reticule" to "shepard points there" was effectively zero, leading to what you outlined.
but in LT turrets will need time to rotate a given angle, so while you can target faster, your turrets (or ship for fixed weapons) will not be able to follow you in the same instant as in Mass Effect.
leading to no net advantage in pausing.
very similar for Fallout.
the VATS is not a pause mechanic as gameplay, its a concession for different playstyles.
the ones who prefer shooters dont have to use it, because you can archieve the same with quick reflexes and a precise mouse.
no faster firing rate, no frozen enemies.
just time slowing down for the awesome effect.
VATS was included to cater for the RPG players who dont want twitch based gameplay.
removing all personal twitch skills from the player and replaces them with the stats of your character
if your weapon handling skill is bad, you dont hit any better in VATS than you could with perfect twitch skills
(like a 13 year old CoD kiddie would have)
Post
Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:33 am
#64
Re: Pausing As A Gameplay Mechanic
What the carton of corn flakes said. =P
Orders-while-paused doesn't let you act more.
It is a UI concession to make up for the inevitable shortcomings of a 2D screen and the lack of truly intelligent bridge officers.
If you need to do more "work" in assessing the situation and giving orders, this is how you can do it.
If you're just that good and don't need to do that - that's cool. Don't pause the game. =)
Orders-while-paused doesn't let you act more.
It is a UI concession to make up for the inevitable shortcomings of a 2D screen and the lack of truly intelligent bridge officers.
If you need to do more "work" in assessing the situation and giving orders, this is how you can do it.
If you're just that good and don't need to do that - that's cool. Don't pause the game. =)
There is no "I" in Tea. That would be gross.
Post
Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:19 am
#65
(on that note, I might actually get to play LT! provided I can create a good enough avatar for someone using my limited skills.)
Re: Pausing As A Gameplay Mechanic
Yeah, that's about what I meant. Shepard turns instantly after you unpause, to whatever direction you were facing - you could bullseye literally anyone simply by pausing.Cornflakes_91 wrote:to your claim from Mass Effect 2+3.
you strictly werent able to turn instantly while paused, you could turn around as quickly with fast reflexes and a sensitive mouse.
but the lag from "pointing target reticule" to "shepard points there" was effectively zero, leading to what you outlined.
I wouldn't really call it a "Mechanic" then - just an option. I'd prefer it to just be an option, but some people are suggesting that it be absolutely necessary that you pause the game. I'm more of the type of person who likes to fly by the seat of their pants - I like the excitement. My favorite game growing up was Combat Flight Simulator. The dogfighting was insane... it doesn't look like a good of a game now, but it was fun back then.Gazz wrote:What the carton of corn flakes said. =P
Orders-while-paused doesn't let you act more.
It is a UI concession to make up for the inevitable shortcomings of a 2D screen and the lack of truly intelligent bridge officers.
If you need to do more "work" in assessing the situation and giving orders, this is how you can do it.
If you're just that good and don't need to do that - that's cool. Don't pause the game. =)
(on that note, I might actually get to play LT! provided I can create a good enough avatar for someone using my limited skills.)
Last edited by Talvieno on Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post
Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:31 am
#66
because im a generous person and i like you....
Re: Pausing As A Gameplay Mechanic
well, turret turn times should prevent thisTalvieno wrote: Yeah, that's about what I meant. Shepard turns instantly after you unpause, to whatever direction you were facing - you could bullseye literally anyone simply by pausing.
well... i was actually thinking of gifting it to you after release.Talvieno wrote: (on that note, I might actually get to play LT! provided I can create a good enough avatar for someone using my limited skills.)
because im a generous person and i like you....
Post
Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:41 am
#67
Re: Pausing As A Gameplay Mechanic
Ditto... I think we will have to convince Josh to give it to him and say so publicly or we will all be sending him like 20 copiesCornflakes_91 wrote:well... i was actually thinking of gifting it to you after release.Talvieno wrote: (on that note, I might actually get to play LT! provided I can create a good enough avatar for someone using my limited skills.)
because im a generous person and i like you....
Challenging your assumptions is good for your health, good for your business, and good for your future. Stay skeptical but never undervalue the importance of a new and unfamiliar perspective.
Imagination Fertilizer
Beauty may not save the world, but it's the only thing that can
Imagination Fertilizer
Beauty may not save the world, but it's the only thing that can
Post
Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:12 am
#68
Re: Pausing As A Gameplay Mechanic
well, we could all send him all our steam cards and he can sell them on the market and buy LT for the moneyHyperion wrote: Ditto... I think we will have to convince Josh to give it to him and say so publicly or we will all be sending him like 20 copies
Post
Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:49 am
#69
Re: Pausing As A Gameplay Mechanic
Heh, well. The reason I accepted this person's offer is because they decided to let me do something for them in return. (not naming the person because they haven't given me permission to.) (and I've made one failed piece of art, but it was technically a commission, and technically for them, so I don't know how ethical it would be for me to post it anywhere.)
Also, I don't think the steam cards thing would work because I don't have a bank account.
Also, I don't think the steam cards thing would work because I don't have a bank account.
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Post
Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:52 am
#70
Re: Pausing As A Gameplay Mechanic
the money you get out is paid in steam credit, which is equivalent to normal money on steam but needs no bank accountTalvieno wrote: Also, I don't think the steam cards thing would work because I don't have a bank account.
Post
Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:43 am
#71
Re: Pausing As A Gameplay Mechanic
Didn't see this... I seriously doubt he'll grant me a copy publicly. XD Or at all. After all, he stands to benefit a lot from having people buy 20 extra copies... lmao. You guys are hilarious, though.Hyperion wrote:Ditto... I think we will have to convince Josh to give it to him and say so publicly or we will all be sending him like 20 copiesCornflakes_91 wrote:well... i was actually thinking of gifting it to you after release.Talvieno wrote: (on that note, I might actually get to play LT! provided I can create a good enough avatar for someone using my limited skills.)
because im a generous person and i like you....
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Post
Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:29 am
#72
Re: Pausing As A Gameplay Mechanic
I failed. :\ Eh well. Gonna stop derailing this thread now.Heh, well. The reason I accepted this person's offer is because they decided to let me do something for them in return in exchange for getting me LT. (not naming the person because they haven't given me permission to.) (and I've made one failed piece of art, but it was technically a commission, and technically for them, so I don't know how ethical it would be for me to post it anywhere.)
Have a question? Send me a PM! || I have a Patreon page up for REKT now! || People talking in IRC over the past two hours:
Post
Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:26 pm
#73
Re: Pausing As A Gameplay Mechanic
hehe, dix pixTalvieno wrote:Heh, well. The reason I accepted this person's offer is because they decided to let me do something for them in return in exchange for getting me LT. (not naming the person because they haven't given me permission to.) (and I've made one failed piece of art, but it was technically a commission, and technically for them, so I don't know how ethical it would be for me to post it anywhere.)
woops, my bad, everything & anything actually means specific and conformed
Post
Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:01 am
#74
On the micromanagement issue, though, I'd like to add my humble two cents. If we're looking for the ability to manage large fleets like a human assistant would, without opening the door to tedious micromanagement, why not simply use a "command points" mechanic which scales with the number of vessels in your fleet? And definitely not a 1:1 points scale, so it forces you to be strategic and clever with the few commands that are available to you. This way, it would eliminate the need for time slowing, but you would have no incentive to remained paused indefinitely to micromanage every single movement of every ship in your fleet. Pausing can be a bit of a cheese mechanic, but "command points" or something similar might make it into a fun and strategic part of LT gameplay.
Maybe another aspect to be added is that a successful objective regains a command point during the battle, so that you are encouraged to help your fleet accomplish their objectives as the commander?
Re: Pausing As A Gameplay Mechanic
First off, I'd like to commend Flatfingers for the fantastic multi-tiered scheme proposed. It's logical and intuitive, and, as I envision playing LT under such a mechanic, it would feel "right".Flatfingers wrote:I still hope that Limit Theory will offer the following kinds of pausing, keyed to the screen that supports each kind of play:
I honestly don't think there's a one-size-fits-all form of pausing for a game that spans multiple levels (and forms) of active play.
- If it's action (e.g., dogfighting, item trading), it's real-time.
- If it's micromanagement (e.g., ship design, fleet directions), it's either slowed-time (as in "RTS" games) or paused. (Either is defensible as fun.)
- If it's high-level thinking (e.g., faction management, strategic planning), it's paused.
- If you need to step away from the game without shutting it down, then the old Escape-key-pauses-everything is appropriate.
On the micromanagement issue, though, I'd like to add my humble two cents. If we're looking for the ability to manage large fleets like a human assistant would, without opening the door to tedious micromanagement, why not simply use a "command points" mechanic which scales with the number of vessels in your fleet? And definitely not a 1:1 points scale, so it forces you to be strategic and clever with the few commands that are available to you. This way, it would eliminate the need for time slowing, but you would have no incentive to remained paused indefinitely to micromanage every single movement of every ship in your fleet. Pausing can be a bit of a cheese mechanic, but "command points" or something similar might make it into a fun and strategic part of LT gameplay.
Maybe another aspect to be added is that a successful objective regains a command point during the battle, so that you are encouraged to help your fleet accomplish their objectives as the commander?
Post
Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:03 am
#75
Re: Pausing As A Gameplay Mechanic
decidedly gamey mechanics are gamey.
dont like command points.
never had any logic in any game
dont like command points.
never had any logic in any game