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Forums too Cliquey? (Split From Bi-Monthly Updates)

#1
Lum, my whole point is that there *shouldn't be all nighters at all* for the videos. I'm sorry if you interpreted me talking about selfishness as being insulting, but honestly the point I'm trying to get across is that Josh shouldn't be pushing himself exceedingly for any video- rather, he should just release them as the end of the month comes around and keep on working- why should there be a content rush? The only reason there would ever be a content rush is if he's trying to please the people watching the videos with 'visible content'. Even pushing them to bimonthly would simply create the same because Josh would raise his own expectations and we'd have the whole same thing happening again with longer videos. Big difference. And the videos *cant* become 100% irregular simply because they're his main mode of communication with people who don't come to the forums; which is a lot of people.

I've only been trying to promote a change in perspective over this, so that Josh releases whatever he's done in the month and doesn't feel the need to push extra content in or delay the video, but I feel like I've been demonised as some sort of slavemaster demanding videos from him monthly. Why is there so much aggression disguised in polite words in these forums? I've been coming here for a while for the dev logs and every time I try to post anything this community always seems to try to push people away. I know that in any case opinions can be misunderstood but it seems to me that the 'regular crowd' around here is really passive aggressive about everything.

EDIt: OK, so I re-read your post and I calmed down a bit. But I still feel like even though It might just have been my defensiveness making your words seem aggressive, that a lot of opinions get locked down in these forums before people can ever explain them. There's a lot of 'You can have your opinion' but in the end what so many posts end up as is this flat denial of even considering the viewpoints of others. This is the sort of thing which I'm finding really distasteful about this community at the moment, especially because I've seen you people interact well enough and take the opinions of other 'regulars' into account. It just feels really exclusive and incredibly frustrating. At the very least you could give us a flat out "no, this isn't how we do things around here" instead of all of this passive aggressive polite talk that you cling to for the moral high ground.
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Re: bi-monthly updates

#2
InfelixTurnus wrote:There's a lot of 'You can have your opinion' but in the end what so many posts end up as is this flat denial of even considering the viewpoints of others. This is the sort of thing which I'm finding really distasteful about this community at the moment, especially because I've seen you people interact well enough and take the opinions of other 'regulars' into account. It just feels really exclusive and incredibly frustrating. At the very least you could give us a flat out "no, this isn't how we do things around here" instead of all of this passive aggressive polite talk that you cling to for the moral high ground.
Hey, there's no moral high ground being claimed here. And I didn't really get any passive aggressive vibes in any of the posts. Relax mate. The community is not a unified blob of arrogance or fanboyship, It's just lots of people having different opinions and expressing them. You are as much a part of the community as anyone else. And you think that Josh should come out with monthly updates. And some of us disagree with that, while others might agree.
Let me give you my reasons. Two things I've found about Josh in the past year are that-
1. He gets excited about new things(duh)
2. He's kind of a showman.

So for him, the updates are much more than progress reports. They are a way to share his excitement with us, but he wants things to work and look awesome, and the response he gets from the community on watching these updates further encourages him. To push out updates every month would really conflict with the kind of person he is, as he'd no longer be having the fun and getting the high of showing something incredible to the community. He's like an illusionist practicing his new tricks until they look brilliant and astounding and ready to be in the spotlight, and that is a part of his nature.

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't talk about these things, as I believe all discussion is good until it gets toxic(which rarely happens here :) )

Of-course, that's my personal opinion, not facts written in stone.
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Re: bi-monthly updates

#3
InfelixTurnus wrote:But I still feel like even though It might just have been my defensiveness making your words seem aggressive, that a lot of opinions get locked down in these forums before people can ever explain them. There's a lot of 'You can have your opinion' but in the end what so many posts end up as is this flat denial of even considering the viewpoints of others. This is the sort of thing which I'm finding really distasteful about this community at the moment, especially because I've seen you people interact well enough and take the opinions of other 'regulars' into account. It just feels really exclusive and incredibly frustrating. At the very least you could give us a flat out "no, this isn't how we do things around here" instead of all of this passive aggressive polite talk that you cling to for the moral high ground.
Is that really how you see this Community, InfelixTurnus? I'm mortified if that is the case. I know some of us have formed forum friendships which can obviously appear very exclusive. What you should try to understand is that for a long time we were very few in number actually posting here. Some of us are not very proficient at being inclusive. The last time any kind of study was done concerning the membership we established that the vast majority of those posting were introverts by nature. I'm not sure what could be done to remedy what you are feeling. :(
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Re: bi-monthly updates

#4
It's a little OT, but since it's come up I'd like to add a word on this "exclusive club" accusation, which has been leveled a few times by a few people.

My feeling is that this project has attracted a higher-than-usual number of people who see the world in very rational terms.

What that means is that this forum tends to attract people who vocally expect opinions to be supported by facts and logic. That's different from a lot of game forums, especially ones for bigger games that thus attract a broader range of personalities and are more about people talking with fewer people listening. People here listen very carefully.

The result is that I, definitely, and I think a fair few others here, can sometimes come across as frustrating when someone expresses a view that runs counter to what we think is correct. We're harder to deal with because we don't just say the irrational equivalent of "nuh-uh!" or make it personal ("you people!"); we go after the ideas and suggestions themselves; we look at each component argument, scrutinize it mercilessly, and dismiss the whole thing if it seems less strong than other suggestions.

That feels infuriating when all you wanted to do was join in on the idea-suggesting fun. That reaction bothers me. I would rather be welcoming, especially to newer members, even if that means sometimes not posting a disagreement with an opinion. Which is exactly what I do -- I can't count the times I've made the conscious choice to not post a disagreement because I've concluded it's more important for forum members to feel that it's safe to express their views.

The thing I'd like folks who feel this frustration to understand is this: the compulsion to correct perceived logical error is not the same thing as "keeping them out of the club." There is no club. There are only a higher number of people here -- because they were attracted by the kind of game LT is -- who have that excessive rationality thing going on than in other game forums. It only looks like a club because a lot of ideas have already been rationally debated into submission to the point that there's some agreement among the old-timers here. But a factual, logical, doesn't-take-things-personally dissent is and should always be welcome, as long as it's understood that it's likely to be questioned, just like everybody else's ideas (including mine) get put under the microscope.

And one last thing: a detailed rational response to a suggestion is in fact a sign of respect. That is someone taking the time to show you exactly where they think your argument is weakest, not as a beat-down, but because they thought your idea was important enough to take it seriously and interesting enough to show you where it could be improved. That's not to say someone who disagrees in this way must be right -- maybe their counter-argument is defective in some way.

In which case that then becomes a valuable conversation that a lot of people might find helpful for clarifying their own beliefs about LT and how it's being developed.

I don't have an Answer for this tension between rational disagreement and putting down people for expressing dissenting views. I think it's usually the former here, but I know it sometimes comes across as the latter. All I can do is try to describe that and offer a different explanation for why some ideas get a rough reception: not because there's a gang who've improperly decided for Josh how this game is going to be, but because a higher-than-usual number of commenters here deal with ideas in a very impersonal and rational (but not always friendly-feeling) way.

If I've made anyone feel like I was trying to shut them up, I apologize. That's not my intention. I'm still going to comment on ideas with which I disagree, and explain in painfully tedious detail why I disagree. ;) But if I seem like I'm doing it in an unfriendly or disrespectful way, I'd appreciate it if you'd let me know so I can fix that.
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Re: bi-monthly updates

#5
tldr; Josh, do you have a plan to get everything done according to your deadlines?

Long version:
I have no beef with warp rails, and am very happy that they are there. More so, since Josh pointed out it was in fact a major goal - all this time I had been treating it like some kind of bonus feature. I'm happy to be corrected in this regard.

That said, I don't want what I said to have been misconstrued, though if it is I can only blame myself: I didn't mean that I thought warp rails or any of the features going to be shown in this next video would be examples of feature creep, but rather the vibe that I'm getting from the logs that there's just one more thing to do before the video goes live - which is also great! But is that time that could be better spent getting to system-completeness?

On that note - how far away exactly are we from system completeness? Are we there already? If so, what's preventing a beta release? Would this video signify system completeness in this sense? If not, what is on the to-do list? I can't reasonably expect exhaustive answers to these questions - I ask this out of curiosity more than anything else, since I backed at a level that did not include the beta. But there is a deadline, whether soft or hard, and deadlines usually include some degree of planning before reaching it.

I also fully understand not being privy to this plan, so The Question I ultimately have is not what the plan is, but whether there is one, and whether you Josh are following it.

I hope I don't come across as being somehow aggressive or feeling entitled in this post - if I do, I apologise. I also hope it isn't unreasonable to ask a question like this; please tell me if it is.

I do concede Hyperion's point and Josh's subsequent confirmation of the importance of system-completeness rather than feature completeness for the beta.



Otherwise, to provide a counterpoint (maybe in the musical sense, I'm feeling pretentious) to Flat's argument about rational people on this forum: even scientists are merely human, and have emotions and opinions just like any other people - and not all members of this forum are scientists, in even the broadest sense. It's a great forum, but the high quality of the interactions on this forum doesn't make it exempt from people getting hurt, and people have been demonstrably hurt on this forum because of the manner in which their ideas have been addressed.
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Re: bi-monthly updates

#6
I agree, we all have to be careful how we come across when speaking to new players about their ideas. I know I've answered questions in a yes and no format about LT and I hope that I remembered to mention that while not everyone will get what they want when LT goes live, features can and will be modded into it as time progresses.

I admit I'm a little concerned about the economy of LT with respects to how many minerals it takes to make a spaceship, what kind of minerals, and if things such as space station dedicated to producing particular fighters or freighters will exist in LT. Besides that there are things like shields, reputation, importing / exporting of ship designs, automated turrets, and tracking of discoveries that all need to be in LT in one form or another for beta to go live.

I honestly hope that many of these items have been completed behind the scenes these past couple of months and that we aren't as far behind as I fear we are. I would really like to see us hit the December 25th beta goal.
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Re: bi-monthly updates

#7
Victor Tombs wrote:
InfelixTurnus wrote:But I still feel like even though It might just have been my defensiveness making your words seem aggressive, that a lot of opinions get locked down in these forums before people can ever explain them. There's a lot of 'You can have your opinion' but in the end what so many posts end up as is this flat denial of even considering the viewpoints of others. This is the sort of thing which I'm finding really distasteful about this community at the moment, especially because I've seen you people interact well enough and take the opinions of other 'regulars' into account. It just feels really exclusive and incredibly frustrating. At the very least you could give us a flat out "no, this isn't how we do things around here" instead of all of this passive aggressive polite talk that you cling to for the moral high ground.
Is that really how you see this Community, InfelixTurnus? I'm mortified if that is the case. I know some of us have formed forum friendships which can obviously appear very exclusive. What you should try to understand is that for a long time we were very few in number actually posting here. Some of us are not very proficient at being inclusive. The last time any kind of study was done concerning the membership we established that the vast majority of those posting were introverts by nature. I'm not sure what could be done to remedy what you are feeling. :(
The thing about the Limit Theory forums is, most threads end up looking like intense debates rather than mere discussions.

In a friendly discussion, you can get away with casually throwing an idea or two into the mix, and in general that can be the extent of your participation. Your ideas contribute to the discussion, and the discussion flows on.

However, in a heated debate, you are expected to take a position, and then argue to defend the merit of your ideas, supporting them with evidence and arguments that attempt to prove your position is the correct one. Your "opponents" then get a chance to respond with counterpoints, and the debate goes back and forth until someone gives up, or a natural equilibrium of ideas is reached.

Now, of the two styles of discourse, the debate is clearly more adversarial, triggering a rigorous examination of any theory put forward. Of course, on the internet, any form of adversarial discussion usually quickly descends into a flurry of personal attacks and insults. (Edit here: minor changes for clarity) However, this rarely happens on the LT Forums, but some people are so used to internet forums that operate in this negative way, they don't automatically see that a point-by-point refutation of your idea is not an attack, but instead an invitation to join a debate. Any politeness anyone might use while disagreeing with the presented idea is clearly sarcasm, or else the whole reply must be an exercise in passive-aggressive behavior; because the responses are written by people on the internet, and everyone knows "the internet makes everyone anonymous jerks".

I'm very aware that a lot of people just aren't expecting/looking for that level of debate. So, I understand why people may feel like any new idea (and, by extension, themselves) are being attacked. Which is absolutely a problem. However, if you dig through some old topics, you'll see the "regulars" arguing just as hard with each other - it's just that that "natural equilibrium of ideas" that I spoke of has generally already been reached between them, so new ideas have it harder, arguing against a consensus.

Anyway, the number 1 rule of this forum is "Be respectful." I like to think the community here does a good job of sticking to that, but if you feel that line is ever being crossed, feel free to PM any mod about the issue. We'll hand down a warning to anyone breaking the rules. We really do want to be welcoming to new people.

Scytale wrote:tldr; Josh, do you have a plan to get everything done according to your deadlines?

[...]

On that note - how far away exactly are we from system completeness? Are we there already? If so, what's preventing a beta release? Would this video signify system completeness in this sense? If not, what is on the to-do list? I can't reasonably expect exhaustive answers to these questions - I ask this out of curiosity more than anything else, since I backed at a level that did not include the beta. But there is a deadline, whether soft or hard, and deadlines usually include some degree of planning before reaching it.

I also fully understand not being privy to this plan, so The Question I ultimately have is not what the plan is, but whether there is one, and whether you Josh are following it.

I hope I don't come across as being somehow aggressive or feeling entitled in this post - if I do, I apologise. I also hope it isn't unreasonable to ask a question like this; please tell me if it is.
Josh has said many times that he is working from a Master Plan. e.g.:
JoshParnell wrote:
Flatfingers wrote:I too would appreciate seeing a high-level plan.

"In preparing for battle, I have always found that plans are useless but planning is indispensable." -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
Ah! About that.

Fear not, there is a "master plan" and it's extensive. Actually it's in the form of an online mind map. It just about crashes my laptop when I try to view it :problem:

But! I'm afraid I'm not willing to share it...there be too many dragons within :) sorryyyyyy :( :angel: :angel:
- The Snark Knight

"Look upward, and share the wonders I've seen."
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Re: bi-monthly updates

#8
Just_Ice_au wrote:The thing about the Limit Theory forums is, most threads end up looking like intense debates rather than mere discussions....
I don't tend to get involved in that sort of combative/adversarial type of discussion, Just_Ice, but I understand what you are saying quite clearly. I do read such discussions and I can see how they could leave certain member types feeling more than a little shell-shocked. I am aware that we have members from a number of professions who are accustomed to this way of conducting discussions and obviously they find it hard to interact with those members who are accustomed to a more relaxed, less fraught way of expressing themselves.

I'm still not sure how you reconcile these differences. We've had long discussions in the past,Just_Ice, and as you know I tend to have a more open, chatty style of conversing/discussing. There are a number of members here who share this less vigorous approach and I do admit I find these types to be more appealing than the types who metaphorically beat you over the head with their sometimes rigid ideas concerning the answers to life the universe and all things LT related.

I am genuine in my concern for the Community here and my politeness is not sarcasm. I'm prepared to talk to anyone who is not going to destroy my mind with "codespeak". I'm afraid to say I'm very polite and respectful in real life as well as on these forums. There isn't much hope of change at my time of life. :angel:

Edit: And I still have good memories of our discussions. ;) :D
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Re: bi-monthly updates

#9
Victor Tombs wrote:
Just_Ice_au wrote:The thing about the Limit Theory forums is, most threads end up looking like intense debates rather than mere discussions....
I don't tend to get involved in that sort of combative/adversarial type of discussion, Just_Ice, but I understand what you are saying quite clearly. I do read such discussions and I can see how they could leave certain member types feeling more than a little shell-shocked. I am aware that we have members from a number of professions who are accustomed to this way of conducting discussions and obviously they find it hard to interact with those members who are accustomed to a more relaxed, less fraught way of expressing themselves.
Absolutely. I tend to see this sort of thing happening most in the suggestions forum, and (you may or may not have noticed) I myself have drastically scaled back my involvement in discussions on the suggestions forum for chiefly that reason. Its certainly not for everyone.
Victor Tombs wrote:I'm still not sure how you reconcile these differences. We've had long discussions in the past, Just_Ice, and as you know I tend to have a more open, chatty style of conversing/discussing. There are a number of members here who share this less vigorous approach and I do admit I find these types to be more appealing than the types who metaphorically beat you over the head with their sometimes rigid ideas concerning the answers to life the universe and all things LT related.

I am genuine in my concern for the Community here and my politeness is not sarcasm. I'm prepared to talk to anyone who is not going to destroy my mind with "codespeak". I'm afraid to say I'm very polite and respectful in real life as well as on these forums. There isn't much hope of change at my time of life. :angel:

Edit: And I still have good memories of our discussions. ;) :D
Victor, I also have enjoyed our many discussions, but I'm happy that I can say the same about many people here. The LT forums seem to be one of those few-and-far-between internet locations where for the most part everyone is civil to and respectful of one another - where the politeness is real, and not just a thin veneer over mean spirits. The trick will be keeping the good parts of the forum spirit intact while being inclusive to the many new people that will no doubt be arriving once LT is released. :thumbup: :wave:
- The Snark Knight

"Look upward, and share the wonders I've seen."
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Re: bi-monthly updates

#10
This idea that the discussions have been heated and adversarial is a genuine shock to me... I have only once (and only because of personal attacks) felt that a discussion was in any way heated.

Sure, there have been splitting of hairs and sometimes individuals will be unable to see the other persons points or unwilling to concede their idea is less capable. I have never once felt beaten or ganged up on for my ideas... And it is only on occasion that I see responses that seem too taciturn and blunt given towards anyone.

That this community seems anything but friendly is a genuine shock to me, I wouldn't even begin to know where and how I have had my words misconstrued as being aggressive, when I never meant any.
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Re: bi-monthly updates

#11
Hyperion wrote:This idea that the discussions have been heated and adversarial is a genuine shock to me... I have only once (and only because of personal attacks) felt that a discussion was in any way heated.
See, passion is a perfect way to heat up a discussion, without ever bringing negative emotions like anger into the picture, and adversarial is not a strictly negative trait either when you already happen to be on opposite sides of a discussion/debate.

The problem is that sometimes it can be hard to tell impassioned-heat apart from angry-heat using this text-based medium that we're stuck with - and this especially apples to newcomers, if they are not familiar with a particular person's usual tone or temperament, they can easily misinterpret the emotion behind a response they receive.
- The Snark Knight

"Look upward, and share the wonders I've seen."
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Re: bi-monthly updates

#13
Cornflakes_91 wrote:I agree with hyper... i also very rarely see something that remotely looks like animosity in here.

And if i see it, it comes from new members who feel attacked (more often than not by me :oops:) or from a single more "regular" member whos name i wont write down here (and no, i dont mean hardenberg)
For the record, I never said animosity, I said adversarial in the context of a debate, which is defined more as:
adversarial
ˌadvəˈsɛːrɪəl/
adjective
  • involving or characterized by conflict or opposition.
    "the adversarial nature of the two-party system"
  • (Law) - (of a trial or legal proceedings) in which the parties in a dispute have the responsibility for finding and presenting evidence.
    "an adversarial system of justice"
- The Snark Knight

"Look upward, and share the wonders I've seen."

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