Return to “General”

Post

Rebellion?

#1
This is a simple question. If say you have a system under your control, and you start doing some not nice shit. If you jump the gun could that cause a rebellion, as in the citizens of a planet refuse your rule and start arming themselves till they eventually start building ships to use against you.

My questions are:
Is such a phenomena possible?
If so, if there is a rebellion/revolution is there going to be a chance that some of your own ships change sides to join you and vice versa?
In case of a rebellion is a total victory necessary? Or do you just have to grind down the rebels till they no longer see a reason to fight?
Can you yourself organize a rebellion against the ruler of a system? As in start a faction which other dissatisfied NPCs can join?
Last edited by Hadrianus on Thu May 15, 2014 2:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
Post

Re: Rebellion?

#2
If Limit Theory were going to have 4X type gameplay, I'd certainly be interested in needing to manage public sentiment or start losing systems to internal strife or external "peacekeeping operations" from a neighbor.

I'm not sure how rebelling systems would play with Limit Theory as a RTS game, though.
Post

Re: Rebellion?

#3
If it is possible, it would probably be done at a low level of detail, i.e., a meter where you are losing influence over the planet.

Potentially this would open up options such as "send military vessels down to quell the rebellion", "arrange a diplomatic meeting", "give the rebels an ultimatum", or "wait to see if the situation improves."

The rebel faction's ships could conceivably take to the space around the planet and form a blockade, allowing the player the chance to fight them or buy their will.

Really, the potential for this sort of thing already exists in the faction setup, it's just not specifically called a rebellion mechanic. If there are NPCs who form a faction opposed to player (or another NPC's) rule over a planet or system, they very well may start a war over the sovereignty of that territory.

The only thing we'd actually need added in are the diplomatic and strategic options.
Shameless Self-Promotion 0/ magenta 0/ Forum Rules & Game FAQ
Post

Re: Rebellion?

#4
I agree, I think that the faction system as it is will handle rebellions pretty well. I do however think that there is room for a morale mechanic, in that if npcs are unhappy with your rule for whatever reason, it begins to show in their work. I would imagine that this would be a result of how well their assigned job fits their personality and how well they are being compensated, and of course if you have attacked or defended them or their friends.

Rebellions have always started passive resistance, people displeased with their situation will almost always slack off, dodge responsibility, skirt the rules, skim off the top, and generally take their sweet time in getting things done long before they actively take up arms.

My thinking is that every npc has a job in which they are happiest that corresponds to their personality, and that this level of happiness can be multiplied by how their compensation (if they are employed) compares to the local market rate for their goods and services. If they are freelancers, they may abandon a job that fits their personality if the pay sucks. This way you can give anyone any job, but you may have to pay more for someone who wants to be doing something else.

I would expect that if morale falls below a threshold inherently variable in every individual, they will begin to passively resist their superiors;they will work slower, neglect sections on their patrols, they may spill secrets or steal a little of the cargo they are carrying to sell for themselves, and so on. As morale continues to fall, this passive resistance will grow, and finally it will become an active resistance.

I would imagine that this sort of individual resistance will be characterized by npcs running off (perhaps with a load of cargo or information) or by actively turning on you, depending on their personality. For a major empire, a few rogue employees should be expected, you can't please everyone, but you may risk valuable equipment and information falling into enemy hands.

Where rebellions start is when you have large numbers of people who are dissatisfied. I had an idea for a resistance mechanic, resistance tokens. it is a bit gamey but fits with the idea of information as an object.

Any player at any time many create or destroy a resistance token towards an authority over them, player or faction, so they can overthrow their supervisor and not the whole faction. Players This token can then be copied and given to others. This token carries with it the names, assets, and firepower of several links up the chain, as well as anyone else the individual meets who also has the token (this makes sharing a token a risky affair, ripe for spies).

When an individual who has one of these tokens sees that the assets and firepower of the names on their list is a sizable fraction of the assets and firepower of those they are resisting, they will begin an active resistance or start a counter-faction. Any individuals who have one of these tokens is much more likely to join the active resistance than not, however they may become a traitor to the resistance and make enemies of them. and then the resistance is either successful or not.

I am not sure yet how to work how to distinguish the asset check in switching to active resistance for a local rebellion versus a larger but sparser one of perhaps say all the asteroid miners in a dozen systems...

thoughts?
Image
Challenging your assumptions is good for your health, good for your business, and good for your future. Stay skeptical but never undervalue the importance of a new and unfamiliar perspective.
Imagination Fertilizer
Beauty may not save the world, but it's the only thing that can
Post

Re: Rebellion?

#5
Hyperion wrote:I agree, I think that the faction system as it is will handle rebellions pretty well. I do however think that there is room for a morale mechanic, in that if npcs are unhappy with your rule for whatever reason, it begins to show in their work. I would imagine that this would be a result of how well their assigned job fits their personality and how well they are being compensated, and of course if you have attacked or defended them or their friends.

Rebellions have always started passive resistance, people displeased with their situation will almost always slack off, dodge responsibility, skirt the rules, skim off the top, and generally take their sweet time in getting things done long before they actively take up arms.

My thinking is that every npc has a job in which they are happiest that corresponds to their personality, and that this level of happiness can be multiplied by how their compensation (if they are employed) compares to the local market rate for their goods and services. If they are freelancers, they may abandon a job that fits their personality if the pay sucks. This way you can give anyone any job, but you may have to pay more for someone who wants to be doing something else.

I would expect that if morale falls below a threshold inherently variable in every individual, they will begin to passively resist their superiors;they will work slower, neglect sections on their patrols, they may spill secrets or steal a little of the cargo they are carrying to sell for themselves, and so on. As morale continues to fall, this passive resistance will grow, and finally it will become an active resistance.

I would imagine that this sort of individual resistance will be characterized by npcs running off (perhaps with a load of cargo or information) or by actively turning on you, depending on their personality. For a major empire, a few rogue employees should be expected, you can't please everyone, but you may risk valuable equipment and information falling into enemy hands.

Where rebellions start is when you have large numbers of people who are dissatisfied. I had an idea for a resistance mechanic, resistance tokens. it is a bit gamey but fits with the idea of information as an object.

Any player at any time many create or destroy a resistance token towards an authority over them, player or faction, so they can overthrow their supervisor and not the whole faction. Players This token can then be copied and given to others. This token carries with it the names, assets, and firepower of several links up the chain, as well as anyone else the individual meets who also has the token (this makes sharing a token a risky affair, ripe for spies).

When an individual who has one of these tokens sees that the assets and firepower of the names on their list is a sizable fraction of the assets and firepower of those they are resisting, they will begin an active resistance or start a counter-faction. Any individuals who have one of these tokens is much more likely to join the active resistance than not, however they may become a traitor to the resistance and make enemies of them. and then the resistance is either successful or not.

I am not sure yet how to work how to distinguish the asset check in switching to active resistance for a local rebellion versus a larger but sparser one of perhaps say all the asteroid miners in a dozen systems...

thoughts?
Actually that idea sounds better than what I had in mind. But the token system may not be quite good. Since it would be rather odd if a resistance soldier knew every leader and every asset held by the rebel faction. That sort of information is usually privy only to those high up the ladder.
Post

Re: Rebellion?

#6
To expand a little bit on Hyperion's statement.

In order to have rebellion, you almost always need a large governing/faction to rebel against. If a large presence in control of some systems (say 10) starts doing things that would cause a rebellion, you have the other NPCs in those systems (not necessarily controlled by said faction) affected but can't exactly 'slack off' because their job may not directly or indirectly help the larger faction.

In those cases, usually the economy is the biggest thing to take the hit. I don't want to sell to this big faction (which brings up another point, can you sell items WITHOUT a station?), so I'll charge an ungodly price to them and only them. Eventually they may construct a crude station that only the non-governing faction would be able to sell or buy at (or get extorted).

Maybe missions supplied by Big Faction would be completed with a higher rate of false information.

Maybe missions would be ignored if ignoring those missions would become a threat to Big Faction.

Maybe there would be information leaking to pirates, or providing them better access to the sector so they can do the job for you.

If/When war does eventually break out, since Josh has allowed alliances, you'd just have a huge alliance for each ship that wants to join it (or smaller faction).
Image
Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
Post

Re: Rebellion?

#7
Well the idea is that not every soldier in the resistance knows every other, they only know about the ones they have met and have shared their status as a resistor. My thinking on leadership is that until and unless a faction is formed there is none, the original dissenter is not in charge, plenty of rebellions have gotten away from the original members (the rise of the Soviet Union comes to mind). What happens is that each dissenter acts only on their own knowledge of the rebellion, symbolized in physical form by the token. The rebellion has no head until the threshold is reached, and then the individual whose token passed the threshold first becomes the head.

Edit: DWMagus, I disagree. Rebellions should be able to happen against anyone, even other rebellions (look how the rebels in Syria have splintered). As to rebellions becoming allies or receiving outside help, I see no reason why someone couldn't give rebellion tokens to outsiders or rival factions that may have an interest in undermining a competitor, but I don't think alliances would be appropriate until the rebellions enter an active phase.

Perhaps, if factions can merge, rebellions could form factions and merge into a United rebellion, or join a bigger one.
Image
Challenging your assumptions is good for your health, good for your business, and good for your future. Stay skeptical but never undervalue the importance of a new and unfamiliar perspective.
Imagination Fertilizer
Beauty may not save the world, but it's the only thing that can
Post

Re: Rebellion?

#8
Ah, so you mean similar goals. This sounds like small alliances (using that term instead of rebellion since each rebelious group is just a small alliance of like-minded individuals) would be able to work towards a common goal and acknowledge each other if their metaproject was the same (or close enough).

This would allow for actors or groups of actors to recognize that "Hey, they're doing the same thing I am, let's be friends and help each other out" even if they weren't a part of the same alliance or faction.
Hyperion wrote:Edit: DWMagus, I disagree. Rebellions should be able to happen against anyone, even other rebellions (look how the rebels in Syria have splintered). As to rebellions becoming allies or receiving outside help, I see no reason why someone couldn't give rebellion tokens to outsiders or rival factions that may have an interest in undermining a competitor, but I don't think alliances would be appropriate until the rebellions enter an active phase.
I'm using a bit of terminology based on the ideas that Josh has put forth. I see an alliance as a quasi-faction. You have entities inside this grouping that don't know each other and only work towards a common goal. You could be employed by ABC Corp, but you yourself want to support a specific movement. You join the alliance without giving up your faction and that it is also separate from the faction. Even if it's 4 or 5 foolhardy people banding together for a common goal (mischief to war), I still see it as an alliance. I guess the easiest way to see it is "An alliance is a logical grouping of entities with a similar goal".

Either way, the ideas put forth in my post would still work; ignoring missions, providing information to outside entities, in addition to what you stated with the 'slacking off' (if said entity was actively employed by the one they are rebelling against). However, we also have to keep in mind that what you rebel against (or possibly believe in) may not be in line with what you do (I'm a transport hauler that's fed up with impossibly high tariffs I'm being charged at this independantly controlled wormhole).
Image
Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
Post

Re: Rebellion?

#9
DWMagus wrote:In order to have rebellion, you almost always need a large governing/faction to rebel against.
I don't know if it's useful to say but I'd like to add that a rebellion requires only something perceived as oppressive or ethically undesirable and a personal desire to cease or avoid that: which can involve as little as two people or one sadly complicated person.
woops, my bad, everything & anything actually means specific and conformed
Post

Re: Rebellion?

#10
So it seems you are saying that token based alliances and other temporary unions would work for aspects far beyond rebellions? if so I agree.

I was thinking that individuals could create and destroy tokens in their possession as their usefulness varied and that any individual could carry numerous tokens, perhaps one for the Trans regional transport guild, the ifgandh security alliance, and the ifgandh transport rebellion, as a sort of membership card. though I think that rebellion tokens and other membership tokens would have to vary slightly in their mechanics.

apologies for bad grammar, typing these things with my thumbs on my phone is a pain.
Image
Challenging your assumptions is good for your health, good for your business, and good for your future. Stay skeptical but never undervalue the importance of a new and unfamiliar perspective.
Imagination Fertilizer
Beauty may not save the world, but it's the only thing that can
Post

Re: Rebellion?

#11
Katawa wrote:I don't know if it's useful to say but I'd like to add that a rebellion requires only something perceived as oppressive or ethically undesirable and a personal desire to cease or avoid that: which can involve as little as two people or one sadly complicated person.
"And three people do it -- three, can you imagine? -- three people walking in, singing a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out... they may think it's an organization.

And can you -- can you imagine fifty people a day, I said, fifty people a day! -- walking in, singing a bar of Alice's Restaurant, and walking out.

And friends... they may think it's a movement."
Post

Re: Rebellion?

#12
Having had the pleasure of playing Eve Online on and off for nigh on eight years, I know an uprising when I see one - and I've seen a few.

Even internal strife a 'revolution' isn't until either a new corporation is created to compete against the 'old guard' - or the 'old guard' is pushed out of the existing corporation and the 'revolutionaries' take control of the existing corporation.

If the NPC AI could decide for themselves within constraints it would generate extra content for the player - get involved or stay out of it. Side with one, or trade and profit from both entities. Invest in one or the other and lose millions under failed leadership and theft.

The scope is big but if information is being handled as a commodity then ALL information could be recorded and traded.

It depends how organisations occur and how and when they can break up. Amicable dissolution after a successful project and a 'natural' parting of the ways and profits should also be included. Not every AI agent should be content with mining simply for the sake of mining, they should be able to decide based on information that the cost of entry to mining is too high and engage in piracy or smaller trading opportunities. Or higher pirates (AI and player) to attack other competitors.

It would be exciting if it can be done.
Life is about memories, the more the better.

Online Now

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests

cron