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Government, law and order?

#1
So I’ve been scouring over the forums and I’ll be dammed if I’ve seen anything that is both relevant and consistent in regards to government and how governments would work in LT. I have seen many topics in regards to factions.
I’m not talking here about the mining operation you start in the ass end of nowhere and then grows up to encompass the whole solar system, or projects you start with the specific goal of mining, pirating, trading etc. I mean actual government, of the people, by the people and for the people (Alternatively: Government of the beloved dictator’s chosen people, by the beloved and wise dictator’s sycophants and for the “people” OR Government of our inbreed overlord’s subject, by he’s royal majesty’s subject and for the interest of our inbred overlord’s interest). In other words government for the sake of governing not as a consequence to an alternative goal.

1. Is there going to be some sort of government structure ?
2. If so how will you get into that government?
3. What positions are going to be in that government if you happen to be the inbreed all wise dictator and who can you assign to those positions?
4. How will laws and regulations be applied, if for example I decided to make sex on Christmas illegal how am I to create that law and how am I going to enforce it?
5. Is there going to be a justice system to pass judgment or will I have to pass judgment myself?
6. How will taxation work, will I be able to choose between flat and progressive tax system or will I be able to tax differently each sort of economic activity?

Again all these questions are based upon the presumption that there is going to be some sort of government structure.

If anyone could point me to a topic that deals with any of these questions I’d appreciate it, if anyone has any suggestions or answers I’d appreciate those as well.
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Re: Government, law and order?

#2
Probably no goverment. Anarchy held stable by fear of what will happen of you act against a faction. Pure risk aversion.

The AI must be able consider that if Faction A has killed all captured thiefs, it's probable that all captured thiefs in the future will be killed too, from both the perspective of the faction (punish people acting against the faction to convey a message that all future attempts will be punished) and the plotters (action will lead to punishment if captured), for this to work.

(The previous paragraph is a single sentence :wtf: )

Also, no taxes, because in LT we don't need hospitals, schools or public driveways (maybe the lattest?), which the taxes would be used for. Laws are not written, but are information on what has happened to those who have done a certain action towards the faction. Justice is passed with guns. ;)
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Re: Government, law and order?

#5
Behemoth wrote:Probably no goverment. Anarchy held stable by fear of what will happen of you act against a faction. Pure risk aversion.

The AI must be able consider that if Faction A has killed all captured thiefs, it's probable that all captured thiefs in the future will be killed too, from both the perspective of the faction (punish people acting against the faction to convey a message that all future attempts will be punished) and the plotters (action will lead to punishment if captured), for this to work.

(The previous paragraph is a single sentence :wtf: )

Also, no taxes, because in LT we don't need hospitals, schools or public driveways (maybe the lattest?), which the taxes would be used for. Laws are not written, but are information on what has happened to those who have done a certain action towards the faction. Justice is passed with guns. ;)
A live by the gun die by the gun sort of universe huh? Could be fun!
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Re: Government, law and order?

#6
Well from my understanding are corporations AND governments at the same time... They are just an organizing structure to unify executive AI into cooperation and group v group competition.

By this, I suspect that any faction which offers protection in exchange for a fee (tax) is acting as a minimal government. I suppose that the faction can do other projects, and offer other benefits to tax payers. however what can also distinguish a loose and free protection agency from a more conventional government is when the protection agency has control over a region of space, and can issue liscences for entry and activity (citizenship) which can I suppose be issued either on npc creation or by application and payment...

As to laws, it has been my thought that there would be an interface which imposes filters on the system. A faction may offer better trade deals to friends, worse deals to neutrals, and embargo enemies and friends of enemies. A faction may lure in friends by offering special services to anyone that brings in so much unobtanium or kills so many enemies.

As to law enforcement, I would suspect that it is entirely might makes right, it is only fear of greater force which prevents anarchy. I suspect that laws would be posted, and violation of the laws would incliine the faction which made them to attack, fine, or confiscate assets, depending on the law.

Taxation seems pretty easy, just have renewable liscences for entry and activity. The price of the liscence will change just like a tax rate. So you may have a liscence to entry, but not a liscence to mine, if you get caught mining in the controlled zone, you may be fined the first time, assets confiscated the second, and attacked the third...
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Re: Government, law and order?

#7
I'd personally love to see a government/controlling body emerge. It helps give rise to order out of the chaos that will be corporations vs pirates vs independants.

It generates risk for pirates and is more than just posting a bounty for someone to pick up.

I'm reminded of the Liberty sector of Freelancer where it felt safe and starting out, you didn't have to worry too much about being sniped. Same thing should be here. Realistically, without government, and a pirate engages you, no one has any reason to help you out "Just because". Yeah, some stray ships might help, but corporations won't care ("Just another newbie getting his flying license), bounty hunters may not care ("Those pirates aren't on my list and I got bigger fish to fry"), and other independants won't really care ("As long as they're not touching me, poor sod").

Government/police or something that establishes that sectors are safe havens. This would also set up potential spawn points within such sectors for when the player starts out.
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Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
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Re: Government, law and order?

#8
DWMagus wrote: but corporations won't care
I think they would, they would benefit from keeping their systems as safe as possible to attract traders, safe systems would attract more traders than less-safe systems, so investing in a 'security force' might be profitable in the long run.

I think that is entirely possible that large corporations/factions would fill the function of a government in the systems they 'own'.
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Re: Government, law and order?

#9
Cha0zz wrote:
DWMagus wrote: but corporations won't care
I think they would, they would benefit from keeping their systems as safe as possible to attract traders, safe systems would attract more traders than less-safe systems, so investing in a 'security force' might be profitable in the long run.

I think that is entirely possible that large corporations/factions would fill the function of a government in the systems they 'own'.
I'm in agreement with Cha0zz on this, I think. Also see this discussion.
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Re: Government, law and order?

#10
*sits down next to Thymine and Cha0zz*

to op:
#1
where is the difference between an corporation which says: you pay me 5% of your mining income and i protect you from pirates
to an government which says: you pay me 5% tax on your income and i protect you from pirates

they own the planets, own the jumpgates leading in and out, are the major military force in the area and punch you in the face (one way or another) if you dont comply to their ruling

#2
like you get in any other faction

#3
the positions you think to need
most likely any operative NPC, may worker NPC's

#4
you enforce it in any way that works.
force
tariff then force
tariff, exortion, then force.
i think you got it ;)

#5
you go to the ruling entity in your area (which you most likely pay taxes to) and say "this one guy attacked me, and your laws forbid that!"
and the ruling entity will go squash the one who threatens their profit by scaring poor freighter pilots.
depending on how the ruling entity thinks about this they may tolerate self-justice, punish you, congratulate you,
or a combination of these things "thank you that you killed this pirate, would you now come with us, you broke the no-agression law"
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Re: Government, law and order?

#11
As for 4, I have some ideas here about how systems of law might be implemented, although these laws apply within territory that factions control. So there's no de jure government and no de jure governmental law, it's just sets of laws that you abide by within a faction's territory, and if that faction controls the whole system, they are the de facto governor of that system.
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Re: Government, law and order?

#12
chirping in a game mechanic I really liked from a previous game was the de jure realm change that took place if you owned a region for a long enough time in Crusader Kings 2. I think that a sense of ownership that grows the longer you control a system would be fantastic. The Hurricane Fist Space Marines get especially pissed when the Pansy Ponies capture their home system much more so than when they captured a recent acquisition on the border, and will work harder and more desperately to get it back.

Taken a bit further, faction subordinates could also feel a greater sense of ownership for the regions they administered as well. Taken even further, all players could have a sense of home in the systems they spend the most time in, measured by tiered percentages to prevent Explorer types from calling some random spot home because they spent 6 weeks there instead of 4...
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Challenging your assumptions is good for your health, good for your business, and good for your future. Stay skeptical but never undervalue the importance of a new and unfamiliar perspective.
Imagination Fertilizer
Beauty may not save the world, but it's the only thing that can
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Re: Government, law and order?

#13
Cornflakes_91 wrote:#1
where is the difference between an corporation which says: you pay me 5% of your mining income and i protect you from pirates
to an government which says: you pay me 5% tax on your income and i protect you from pirates
This works for me.

I guess then the next thing I would like to see is a corporation that 'owns' multiple sectors at once to basically be the same thing as government.
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Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
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Re: Government, law and order?

#14
So thinking about corporations as governments... A couple renaming of terms, like having departments/divisions oversee sectors, a task force - a colonizing group sent to claim a planet or set up an outpost or a new project. Taxes are payments to sustain the project, and get citizenship, the right to own areas and protection by security guards. That's all I got so far. In this sense, factions = corporations = governments. It's a matter of renaming and contextualization, really.
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